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You could not possibly have any proof to back up this racist statement.

insertcredit 8y ago
The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....
- simonh 8y ago
  It's disputed that it's due to race, there's a good argument that it's due to culture and culture can change.
  - insertcredit 8y ago
    The cause of the black-white IQ gap is not relevant to this thread - not sure why you brought it up - . The fact is that the gap exists and of course one would expect it to exist in the US prison population too thus the rest of my argument naturally follows. The crux of the matter being that rehabilitation works for Norway today but wouldn't work for US (today-near future). Cultural changes to raise IQs enough to be represented in the US prison population - sounds like a moon shot - is an entirely different discussion. Keep the downvotes coming!
    - simonh 8y ago
      If the cause is cultural, then it's not inherent and is tractable to change through education and is not an obstacle to rehabilitation. It's just a behaviour, not an innate trait.
      - rjf72 8y ago
        Even if you take the rather extreme assumption of purely environmental factors, your conclusion does not hold. "Environmental" does not inherently mean "changeable" on already affected individuals. For instance developmental malnutrition is a purely environmental phenomena that leads to stunted growth, reduced IQ, and various other issues. It's completely environmental and completely irreversible upon already affected individuals. And even if some revolutionary discovery was made to help treat stunted IQs, prisons are probably not the place one would want to start. The IQ gap holds between populations of all classes and socioeconomic condition. You open yourself to missing the true effectiveness of such a monumental discovery due to confounding biases within the prison population. The possibility, if not probability, of coercion upon experimental "treatment" towards prisoners is also probably something we ought probably prefer to avoid.
        simonh 8y ago
        Low IQ doesn’t mean incapable of changing behaviour. You keep assuming this link but I don’t see any reason to assume low IQ prisoners are incapable of rehabilitation.
    - perfmode 8y ago
      Do you know there are black people on this site?
      - insertcredit 8y ago
        Is this relevant to the discussion? Does it change anything of what I wrote and referenced? Why do you keep bringing it up?
        moorhosj 8y ago
        Have you provided evidence that IQ has an influence on one's ability to be rehabilitated in prison? Said a different way, is IQ relevant to the discussion? Why do you keep bringing it up?
        insertcredit 8y ago
        I made a reasonable argument and backed it with referenced facts. Besides the downvotes I received, my main posts were flagged and are now invisible. On top of that, I get low quality comments that add nothing but dilution to the discussion ("Hey did you know I am black?"). Those posts did not get flagged. It's quite clear that the thought police will not allow any discussion on these matters to take place here.
        moorhosj 8y ago
        First of all, you are not a victim. Instead of blaming other people ("the thought police") or trying to call out fellow commenters, maybe try to assess why your post was received so negatively. Perhaps you could have presented it in a better way. It's possible that something you find reasonable, is not viewed that way by others. I still can't see where you've presented evidence that IQ measures have an impact on a prisoners ability to be rehabilitated. This is the crux of your entire argument.
  - sangnoir 8y ago
    I think an even better argument (than 'culture') can be made for socio-economic factors (nutrition, environment, healthcare, etc). There's an "IQ gap" between poor and rich people.
- monocasa 8y ago
  The IQ tests are quite a bit more culturally specific than people generally assume.
- moorhosj 8y ago
  ==The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed.== That a gap exists is widely accepted. Why that is and what it actually means is widely disputed. From your Wikipedia source: "Nevertheless, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them." "there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent research has favored environmental explanations for this fact, such as lack of basic infrastructure related to health and education." "All recent reviews agree that some environmental factors that are unequally distributed between racial groups have been shown to affect intelligence in ways that could contribute to the test score gap." "Environmental factors including childhood lead exposure, low rates of breast feeding, and poor nutrition can significantly affect cognitive development and functioning. For example, childhood exposure to lead, associated with homes in poorer areas causes an average IQ drop of 7 points"
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    What the actual fuck? 1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again. 2) This comment thread is bringing out all the racists on HN.
    - moorhosj 8y ago
      ==1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again.== I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again.
      - craftyguy 8y ago
        > I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again. Or you know, you could use a reliable source of information to counter their argument instead of using the same crap to try (and fail) to prove a point..
        eropple 8y ago
        I empathize with being mad at this subthread, but, respectfully, I think you're aiming at the wrong guy. Because, rhetorically, "you aren't even supported by your own source" is pretty powerful. Also keep in mind that troglodytes like the racist in the room exist to waste the time of decent people. Doing actual research to beat on them means that they win.
- perfmode 8y ago
  You know there are black people on this site, right? (I am black)
  - ddoolin 8y ago
    Honestly, I thought I must've misinterpreted the original comments somehow, and maybe I did, but I guess I'm not alone.

The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed. [1] US prisons are ~38% black. [2] Norwegian prisons aren't. Not to mention that in general, and without taking into account race, you don't expect the brightest to be in there. Ergo average IQ in US prisons being much lower than in Norwegian prisons. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_States_test_scores https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_intelligence#United_S... [2] https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp https://www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race....

simonh 8y ago
It's disputed that it's due to race, there's a good argument that it's due to culture and culture can change.
- insertcredit 8y ago
  The cause of the black-white IQ gap is not relevant to this thread - not sure why you brought it up - . The fact is that the gap exists and of course one would expect it to exist in the US prison population too thus the rest of my argument naturally follows. The crux of the matter being that rehabilitation works for Norway today but wouldn't work for US (today-near future). Cultural changes to raise IQs enough to be represented in the US prison population - sounds like a moon shot - is an entirely different discussion. Keep the downvotes coming!
  - simonh 8y ago
    If the cause is cultural, then it's not inherent and is tractable to change through education and is not an obstacle to rehabilitation. It's just a behaviour, not an innate trait.
    - rjf72 8y ago
      Even if you take the rather extreme assumption of purely environmental factors, your conclusion does not hold. "Environmental" does not inherently mean "changeable" on already affected individuals. For instance developmental malnutrition is a purely environmental phenomena that leads to stunted growth, reduced IQ, and various other issues. It's completely environmental and completely irreversible upon already affected individuals. And even if some revolutionary discovery was made to help treat stunted IQs, prisons are probably not the place one would want to start. The IQ gap holds between populations of all classes and socioeconomic condition. You open yourself to missing the true effectiveness of such a monumental discovery due to confounding biases within the prison population. The possibility, if not probability, of coercion upon experimental "treatment" towards prisoners is also probably something we ought probably prefer to avoid.
      - simonh 8y ago
        Low IQ doesn’t mean incapable of changing behaviour. You keep assuming this link but I don’t see any reason to assume low IQ prisoners are incapable of rehabilitation.
  - perfmode 8y ago
    Do you know there are black people on this site?
    - insertcredit 8y ago
      Is this relevant to the discussion? Does it change anything of what I wrote and referenced? Why do you keep bringing it up?
      - moorhosj 8y ago
        Have you provided evidence that IQ has an influence on one's ability to be rehabilitated in prison? Said a different way, is IQ relevant to the discussion? Why do you keep bringing it up?
        insertcredit 8y ago
        I made a reasonable argument and backed it with referenced facts. Besides the downvotes I received, my main posts were flagged and are now invisible. On top of that, I get low quality comments that add nothing but dilution to the discussion ("Hey did you know I am black?"). Those posts did not get flagged. It's quite clear that the thought police will not allow any discussion on these matters to take place here.
        moorhosj 8y ago
        First of all, you are not a victim. Instead of blaming other people ("the thought police") or trying to call out fellow commenters, maybe try to assess why your post was received so negatively. Perhaps you could have presented it in a better way. It's possible that something you find reasonable, is not viewed that way by others. I still can't see where you've presented evidence that IQ measures have an impact on a prisoners ability to be rehabilitated. This is the crux of your entire argument.
- sangnoir 8y ago
  I think an even better argument (than 'culture') can be made for socio-economic factors (nutrition, environment, healthcare, etc). There's an "IQ gap" between poor and rich people.
monocasa 8y ago
The IQ tests are quite a bit more culturally specific than people generally assume.
moorhosj 8y ago
==The black-white IQ gap in the US is not scientifically disputed.== That a gap exists is widely accepted. Why that is and what it actually means is widely disputed. From your Wikipedia source: "Nevertheless, greater variation in IQ scores exists within each ethnic group than between them." "there is a general consensus that the average IQ in developing countries is lower than in developed countries, but subsequent research has favored environmental explanations for this fact, such as lack of basic infrastructure related to health and education." "All recent reviews agree that some environmental factors that are unequally distributed between racial groups have been shown to affect intelligence in ways that could contribute to the test score gap." "Environmental factors including childhood lead exposure, low rates of breast feeding, and poor nutrition can significantly affect cognitive development and functioning. For example, childhood exposure to lead, associated with homes in poorer areas causes an average IQ drop of 7 points"
- craftyguy 8y ago
  What the actual fuck? 1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again. 2) This comment thread is bringing out all the racists on HN.
  - moorhosj 8y ago
    ==1) Wikipedia is not a reliable source of information, try again.== I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      > I used the person's own source to display the cherry-picked nature of their data, try again. Or you know, you could use a reliable source of information to counter their argument instead of using the same crap to try (and fail) to prove a point..
      - eropple 8y ago
        I empathize with being mad at this subthread, but, respectfully, I think you're aiming at the wrong guy. Because, rhetorically, "you aren't even supported by your own source" is pretty powerful. Also keep in mind that troglodytes like the racist in the room exist to waste the time of decent people. Doing actual research to beat on them means that they win.
perfmode 8y ago
You know there are black people on this site, right? (I am black)
- ddoolin 8y ago
  Honestly, I thought I must've misinterpreted the original comments somehow, and maybe I did, but I guess I'm not alone.