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7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. When are the Americans going to realise you can't punitively punish som

7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. When are the Americans going to realise you can't punitively punish someone and not reap of profound negative consequences (re-offending, home-breaking etc.).

e40 8y ago
As an American, I've been waiting for us to realize this for decades. I don't think we ever will.
muzani 8y ago
It's not just punitive. Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. The idea is to just isolate them from society.
- mikejb 8y ago
  I agree that a human can be 'broken', but broken people should get psychiatric care, not prison.
  - riahi 8y ago
    We used to institutionalize people, then we defunded the entire psychiatric infrastructure.
    - bluGill 8y ago
      While it sounds bad when you put it that way, the psychiatric infrastructure that existed before was evil. As bad as things are for those who need help, they are probably better living on the streets than in those institutions. I knew someone who was in an orphanage (not the same as psychiatric, but similar problems existed there I just don't have anecdotes to share) in the 1920s. They would beat him with a chimney brush if he slept on his pillow. They got awards for how nice their beds looked (since the pillows were unused they always looked new). They used a chimney brush because the metal bristles would hurt without leaving large marks on the body. While you could argue (and I would agree) that we can do better today I'm not convinced we actually would in practice.
      - riahi 8y ago
        The rise in American incarceration coincides with the de-institutionalization of psychiatric patients and subsequent defunding of community mental health programs. Perhaps they are linked, and prisons have now taken on the previous role of psychiatric institutions. The fact is, I used to see mentally ill patients all the time and have no where to send them. Often, they would turn to crime just to survive or get off the streets. While I agree there were abuses in the past, wholesale destruction of the old system is a very American response without any real thought to its replacement.
      - ericfrenkiel 8y ago
        What you are stating is 100% morally wrong - that it’s better for a mentally ill individual to be left to starve on the streets rather than a society that can afford to care for these individuals in a controlled environment? Anecdotal support of your argument is a logical fallacy, and can’t be the basis of policy selection.
        bluGill 8y ago
        Things are more subtle than that. There are a few who starve to death, but the vast majority do find support in the current system and their lives are better than it would be. As always it is complex.
    - tetraca 8y ago
      The infrastructure we had was partially disbanded/defunded because asylums frequently subjected patients to inhumane conditions and outright abuse. There were movements in the 70s by ex-patients and their families trying to get people out of the system and living in programs that try to help patients live more independently, because of this.
      - riahi 8y ago
        And prisons don’t? I would argue the modern American prison system has stepped into the role of the old asylum system and done an arguably worse job.
        tetraca 8y ago
        That the American prison system is worse at the job doesn't really excuse the behavior of the old asylum system. We shouldn't fall into the same traps. There needs to be significant reform of both. What mechanisms and techniques need to be in place, however, I am not in any way qualified to say.
        mrguyorama 8y ago
        So let's shut it down too then. Maybe when we have literally nothing left, America can finally realize that people committing crimes need help, not vindictive punishment. But this is the same America that regularly jokes about men getting raped in prison, and gleefully discuss how convicted pedophiles will likely die if they end up in general population
  - muzani 8y ago
    I agree, but at the moment, our psychiatric ability isn't at the level to be able to do that. We have less trouble building tunnels than reforming prisoners.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. Yes, in many cases because of their exposure to our prison system.
  - ericfrenkiel 8y ago
    That still doesn’t negate dragonwriter’s very valid argument.
sethammons 8y ago
Most crime is likely related to being poor, but this case shows someone who chronically chooses crime, even when they had a job. How do you "fix" that? There are people who will work hard to avoid being good. There are people who enjoy being bad, who enjoy hurting others, who enjoy screwing over others. How do you fix that? I'd contend that the best thing to do is remove those people from society. The American system is broken, but these kind of people can't be rehabilitated. You could "fix" them as much as you could "fix" someone's sexuality.
- bluedino 8y ago
  >> Most crime is likely related to being poor Some crime could be. Theft, burglary. But Assualt? Motor vehicle theft? DUI? Murder? Weapons violations? Vandalism? Child abuse?
  - gumby 8y ago
    Yep
  - llamataboot 8y ago
    Possibly don't think about being poor in the context of just "needing more resources". Think about it in the context of having much different risk/reward calculations for all activities, much higher stress levels, much worse access to health care, much higher levels of self-medication, higher sense of futility and unfairness in the world, possibly cognitive/emotional impairments due to unaddressed physical health issues, etc. Unless you've been poor yourself, especially poor in a rich country, or unless you've worked directly with poor people and learned from them what it is like to live their lives, assume that it's far more difficult to simply /exist/ than you can imagine.
    - iamgopal 8y ago
      This is true. Being poor for prolonged time fuck with your mindset and rationality, their basic rationale of what's good is cloudy at best. Adult education of rationality for prisoners and underprivileged is where these resources should go.
hourislate 8y ago
What about the man in Toronto who shooed away a Raccoon with a broom? He had to fight for his life to avoid jail and payed a pretty hefty fine. https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/03/12/man_who_attacked_raccoons_with_shovel_pleads_guilty_to_animal_cruelty.html https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/03/12/man_who_attack... Canada is very light on it's criminals. Child Molesters, Rapists and even murderers tend to spend little time behind bars with little consequence for their actions. Here is another article about how broken Canadian Law is. https://www.straight.com/blogra/canadian-justice-system-so-broken-its-criminal https://www.straight.com/blogra/canadian-justice-system-so-b... Just recently a young boy was beaten to death by a repeat offender in Winnipeg. The animal broke into the boys home and beat him to death while the child tried to protect his Grandmother. The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. I will be surprised if he gets any jail time. I wouldn't be proud of Canada's punishment of criminals.
- Hello71 8y ago
  you use fucking shovels as brooms in America? what's wrong with you?
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  >Nguyen, 55, pleaded guilty at Old City Hall court to beating three baby raccoons with a shovel, probably killing one and breaking another’s foreleg, because they were destroying his garden in 2011. He beat the living tar out of living creatures instead of dealing with them humanely - yeah, that should be punished. > The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. Why would you need his name? Has he even been found guilty yet?
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    So, not a fan of animal cruelty, but I can go to a store and purchase meat from animals raised in horrific conditions (including veal, foie gras, etc.) so if nothing else the law here seems... inconsistent.
    - 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
arbuge 8y ago
> 7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. Perhaps but in most states, since this would be a state crime, he'd only spend a small fraction of that time actually in prison.
- ams6110 8y ago
  And likely not his first offense. GP mentions he was already in the juvenile system. Chances are he had a few other adult minor offenses already also, and when he got caught again, this time in a clearly planned and deliberate ongoing burglary ring, he got the book thrown at him.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
malvosenior 8y ago
His own brother thinks that it's good that he's in prison because he wreaks havoc and fathers multiple (state supported) children when out of prison. From this perspective, 6-12 months would be the option that reaps "profound negative consequences".

e40 8y ago

As an American, I've been waiting for us to realize this for decades. I don't think we ever will.

muzani 8y ago

It's not just punitive. Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. The idea is to just isolate them from society.

mikejb 8y ago
I agree that a human can be 'broken', but broken people should get psychiatric care, not prison.
- riahi 8y ago
  We used to institutionalize people, then we defunded the entire psychiatric infrastructure.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    While it sounds bad when you put it that way, the psychiatric infrastructure that existed before was evil. As bad as things are for those who need help, they are probably better living on the streets than in those institutions. I knew someone who was in an orphanage (not the same as psychiatric, but similar problems existed there I just don't have anecdotes to share) in the 1920s. They would beat him with a chimney brush if he slept on his pillow. They got awards for how nice their beds looked (since the pillows were unused they always looked new). They used a chimney brush because the metal bristles would hurt without leaving large marks on the body. While you could argue (and I would agree) that we can do better today I'm not convinced we actually would in practice.
    - riahi 8y ago
      The rise in American incarceration coincides with the de-institutionalization of psychiatric patients and subsequent defunding of community mental health programs. Perhaps they are linked, and prisons have now taken on the previous role of psychiatric institutions. The fact is, I used to see mentally ill patients all the time and have no where to send them. Often, they would turn to crime just to survive or get off the streets. While I agree there were abuses in the past, wholesale destruction of the old system is a very American response without any real thought to its replacement.
    - ericfrenkiel 8y ago
      What you are stating is 100% morally wrong - that it’s better for a mentally ill individual to be left to starve on the streets rather than a society that can afford to care for these individuals in a controlled environment? Anecdotal support of your argument is a logical fallacy, and can’t be the basis of policy selection.
      - bluGill 8y ago
        Things are more subtle than that. There are a few who starve to death, but the vast majority do find support in the current system and their lives are better than it would be. As always it is complex.
  - tetraca 8y ago
    The infrastructure we had was partially disbanded/defunded because asylums frequently subjected patients to inhumane conditions and outright abuse. There were movements in the 70s by ex-patients and their families trying to get people out of the system and living in programs that try to help patients live more independently, because of this.
    - riahi 8y ago
      And prisons don’t? I would argue the modern American prison system has stepped into the role of the old asylum system and done an arguably worse job.
      - tetraca 8y ago
        That the American prison system is worse at the job doesn't really excuse the behavior of the old asylum system. We shouldn't fall into the same traps. There needs to be significant reform of both. What mechanisms and techniques need to be in place, however, I am not in any way qualified to say.
      - mrguyorama 8y ago
        So let's shut it down too then. Maybe when we have literally nothing left, America can finally realize that people committing crimes need help, not vindictive punishment. But this is the same America that regularly jokes about men getting raped in prison, and gleefully discuss how convicted pedophiles will likely die if they end up in general population
- muzani 8y ago
  I agree, but at the moment, our psychiatric ability isn't at the level to be able to do that. We have less trouble building tunnels than reforming prisoners.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Some (not all) people are broken, unfixable, and dangerous. Yes, in many cases because of their exposure to our prison system.
- ericfrenkiel 8y ago
  That still doesn’t negate dragonwriter’s very valid argument.

sethammons 8y ago

Most crime is likely related to being poor, but this case shows someone who chronically chooses crime, even when they had a job. How do you "fix" that? There are people who will work hard to avoid being good. There are people who enjoy being bad, who enjoy hurting others, who enjoy screwing over others. How do you fix that? I'd contend that the best thing to do is remove those people from society. The American system is broken, but these kind of people can't be rehabilitated. You could "fix" them as much as you could "fix" someone's sexuality.

bluedino 8y ago
>> Most crime is likely related to being poor Some crime could be. Theft, burglary. But Assualt? Motor vehicle theft? DUI? Murder? Weapons violations? Vandalism? Child abuse?
- gumby 8y ago
  Yep
- llamataboot 8y ago
  Possibly don't think about being poor in the context of just "needing more resources". Think about it in the context of having much different risk/reward calculations for all activities, much higher stress levels, much worse access to health care, much higher levels of self-medication, higher sense of futility and unfairness in the world, possibly cognitive/emotional impairments due to unaddressed physical health issues, etc. Unless you've been poor yourself, especially poor in a rich country, or unless you've worked directly with poor people and learned from them what it is like to live their lives, assume that it's far more difficult to simply /exist/ than you can imagine.
  - iamgopal 8y ago
    This is true. Being poor for prolonged time fuck with your mindset and rationality, their basic rationale of what's good is cloudy at best. Adult education of rationality for prisoners and underprivileged is where these resources should go.

hourislate 8y ago

What about the man in Toronto who shooed away a Raccoon with a broom? He had to fight for his life to avoid jail and payed a pretty hefty fine. https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/03/12/man_who_attacked_raccoons_with_shovel_pleads_guilty_to_animal_cruelty.html https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2013/03/12/man_who_attack... Canada is very light on it's criminals. Child Molesters, Rapists and even murderers tend to spend little time behind bars with little consequence for their actions. Here is another article about how broken Canadian Law is. https://www.straight.com/blogra/canadian-justice-system-so-broken-its-criminal https://www.straight.com/blogra/canadian-justice-system-so-b... Just recently a young boy was beaten to death by a repeat offender in Winnipeg. The animal broke into the boys home and beat him to death while the child tried to protect his Grandmother. The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. I will be surprised if he gets any jail time. I wouldn't be proud of Canada's punishment of criminals.

Hello71 8y ago
you use fucking shovels as brooms in America? what's wrong with you?
SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
>Nguyen, 55, pleaded guilty at Old City Hall court to beating three baby raccoons with a shovel, probably killing one and breaking another’s foreleg, because they were destroying his garden in 2011. He beat the living tar out of living creatures instead of dealing with them humanely - yeah, that should be punished. > The media won't even tell you the animals name or anything about him. Why would you need his name? Has he even been found guilty yet?
- CalRobert 8y ago
  So, not a fan of animal cruelty, but I can go to a store and purchase meat from animals raised in horrific conditions (including veal, foie gras, etc.) so if nothing else the law here seems... inconsistent.
  - 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

arbuge 8y ago

> 7 years for something that would have probably gotten him 6-12 months in Europe/Canada. Perhaps but in most states, since this would be a state crime, he'd only spend a small fraction of that time actually in prison.

ams6110 8y ago
And likely not his first offense. GP mentions he was already in the juvenile system. Chances are he had a few other adult minor offenses already also, and when he got caught again, this time in a clearly planned and deliberate ongoing burglary ring, he got the book thrown at him.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

malvosenior 8y ago

His own brother thinks that it's good that he's in prison because he wreaks havoc and fathers multiple (state supported) children when out of prison. From this perspective, 6-12 months would be the option that reaps "profound negative consequences".