5 ms·

We pay for healthcare every month, even if we dont go the doctor. Last year I paid 500€ per month for healthcare, and I went one time to the doctor

by polote 8y ago

CloudNetworking 8y ago
I'd say your grasp of how taxes work is not great if you think you paid 500EUR for your use of healthcare that month.
- jlangenauer 8y ago
  It’s not tax, we pay to a “Krankenkasse” (roughly a not-for-Profit health insurer), so we see exactly what it costs. The premium is based on your monthly salary.
  - rusticpenn 8y ago
    So, you pay for others when you are young and healthy and reap the benefits when you are plder and more prone to illnesses.
    - Tomte 8y ago
      Yes. That's the "social" in "social market economy".
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    By the same logic the zakat in Saudi Arabia is not a tax because it theoretically goes to a non-state entity. If you’re not free not to pay it it’s a tax. It may be a well designed, special purpose tax that stops people doing stupid things but it’s still a tax.
    - pintxo 8y ago
      There is an important legal distinction between tax and insurance (in Germany). If you pay taxes, the state may do whatever it suits with the money. If they decide once day to no longer maintain the public infrastructure using your taxes but instead increase politicians salaries they are free to do this. If you pay an insurance, on the other hand, you have a legally enforceable right to receive the insurance benefits if you meet the pre-defined criteria for an insurance case.
      - barry-cotter 8y ago
        That one payment is legally a tax and another is not has no bearing on whether it is economically a tax, any more than the culinary distinction between fruits and vegetables bears on the botanical one. Botanically a tomatoe is a fruit. In the kitchen it’s a vegetable.
        pintxo 8y ago
        Not sure I can follow you here. What’s your definition of a tax?
        barry-cotter 8y ago
        I would define it as an involuntary payment, mandated by government. In German law the insurance contribution may not be a tax because payment of it entitles you to certain services. That doesn’t stop it being an involuntary payment, mandated by the government, a tax by common definition. That doesn’t make the legal definition wrong, but it isn’t really relevant outside a legal context just as a chef won't argue with a botanist that actually a tomatoe or a pumpkin is a vegetable not a fruit. Botanically they’re right but who cares? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax A tax (from the Latin taxo) is a mandatory financial charge or some other type of levy imposed upon a taxpayer (an individual or other legal entity) by a governmental organization in order to fund various public expenditures.[1] A failure to pay, along with evasion of or resistance to taxation, is punishable by law. Taxes consist of direct or indirect taxes and may be paid in money or as its labour equivalent.
- quietbritishjim 8y ago
  The parent comment said: > I paid 500€ per month for healthcare You misquoted that as: > 500EUR for your use of healthcare that month (Emphasis mine.) Their original statement was correct (assuming that is what they paid!) and didn't sound like a complaint to me, just a factual correction.
  - CloudNetworking 8y ago
    Technically correct, the best kind of correct :-)
hh3k0 8y ago
500 Euro per month? What is the name of your insurance provider? I have never heard of such outrageously priced healthcare plans (private providers excluded, of course).
- martin_a 8y ago
  In Germany, and this might apply to other states of the EU too, you'll pay a fixed percentage of your loan for healthcare services. For Germany it's around 14-15% of your monthly income before taxes. So, if you earn well, you'll also have to pay a bigger sum for healthcare services.
  - bkolobara 8y ago
    If you earn more than 50k Euro per year you can opt in for private health insurance instead. This greatly reduces the cost of insurance if you have big income. You can get good private insurance for 250-400Euro/month depending on your age.
    - watt 8y ago
      ... which will balloon to 600, 800 Euro/month, as you get older. And if don't maintain the same level of income as you retire, you might have another thing coming - the public insurance will not welcome you back.
    - Brotkrumen 8y ago
      And once you get older, your private insurance premiums rise, which you may not be able to afford. Public insurers won't let you back in.
      - martin_a 8y ago
        > Public insurers won't let you back in. I find this perfectly valid and think we should get rid of private health insurance at all. It's undermining our system, pretty much like pension for state workers and alike. We really need to unify this system, imho.
eastendguy 8y ago
In other words: The direct cost of the insulin for the average German is not $55, but $0 - since it is covered by the mandatory health insurance. That said, don't worry that you do not get enough back from your health insurance. This will come soon enough when you get older ;-)
- basch 8y ago
  Are people not understanding how drug prices work? Intellectual property law is a way for government to grant exclusivity to one firm. This whole "you can get it for x in Canada and y in Germany" is a silly conversation. It's not like it costs 1000x to manufacturer the drug here vs there. The R&D and marketing costs are amortized over the period of exclusivity. Saying "you can just go to Canada to get it" just means "im going to circumvent intellectual property law." It's kind of like, but not quite, piracy. You're choosing where and when which laws apply to you. It also kicks the can down to the rest of the people buying the drug, because we know the pharma actuaries arent going to price their drug at a loss. And then on top of that, like you say, these prices people pay AFTER insurance arent what the cost of the drug is to the population, its an already subsidized price. Germans and Canadians are getting the drug cheaper not only because they have different laws, but because the R&D recovery isnt evenly split between country, they take their money where they can get it. Insulin SHOULD be generic by now (the patent on long-acting synthetic insulin expired in 2014), but the companies continually improve it and always sell the latest variant. And of course Doctors are going to prescribe what works best.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    > but because the R&D recovery isnt evenly split between country, This point, which always comes up in these threads, has already been debunked both in those other threads, but it was even debunked here before you made this comment.
    - basch 8y ago
      You're saying drug companies make an equal amount of extra money, after manufacturing costs, in every country?
JauntTrooper 8y ago
Here in the US I pay $700 a month for health insurance for my family, with my employer contributing another $1,200. I have a $3,000 deductible, so the first $3,000 of expenses every year are not covered. Above that I pay 20% of costs. I also pay 1.45% of all income for Medicare, which I will not be eligible for until I'm 65, a few decades away. My employer pays an additional 1.45% on my behalf and I pay an additional 0.9% surcharge on all household income over $250k. I'd love to start my own company but health insurance costs are a big impediment. I have young kids, I can't leave my family underinsured. We're healthy now thankfully, but what if one of us gets cancer or is in a car accident and we're hit with $500k+ bills (or worse - if we can't get the right treatment)? I don't know how other people do it.

We pay for healthcare every month, even if we dont go the doctor. Last year I paid 500€ per month for healthcare, and I went one time to the doctor

by polote 8y ago

We pay for healthcare every month, even if we dont go the doctor. Last year I paid 500€ per month for healthcare, and I went one time to the doctor

CloudNetworking 8y ago

I'd say your grasp of how taxes work is not great if you think you paid 500EUR for your use of healthcare that month.

jlangenauer 8y ago
It’s not tax, we pay to a “Krankenkasse” (roughly a not-for-Profit health insurer), so we see exactly what it costs. The premium is based on your monthly salary.
- rusticpenn 8y ago
  So, you pay for others when you are young and healthy and reap the benefits when you are plder and more prone to illnesses.
  - Tomte 8y ago
    Yes. That's the "social" in "social market economy".
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  By the same logic the zakat in Saudi Arabia is not a tax because it theoretically goes to a non-state entity. If you’re not free not to pay it it’s a tax. It may be a well designed, special purpose tax that stops people doing stupid things but it’s still a tax.
  - pintxo 8y ago
    There is an important legal distinction between tax and insurance (in Germany). If you pay taxes, the state may do whatever it suits with the money. If they decide once day to no longer maintain the public infrastructure using your taxes but instead increase politicians salaries they are free to do this. If you pay an insurance, on the other hand, you have a legally enforceable right to receive the insurance benefits if you meet the pre-defined criteria for an insurance case.
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      That one payment is legally a tax and another is not has no bearing on whether it is economically a tax, any more than the culinary distinction between fruits and vegetables bears on the botanical one. Botanically a tomatoe is a fruit. In the kitchen it’s a vegetable.
      - pintxo 8y ago
        Not sure I can follow you here. What’s your definition of a tax?
        barry-cotter 8y ago
        I would define it as an involuntary payment, mandated by government. In German law the insurance contribution may not be a tax because payment of it entitles you to certain services. That doesn’t stop it being an involuntary payment, mandated by the government, a tax by common definition. That doesn’t make the legal definition wrong, but it isn’t really relevant outside a legal context just as a chef won't argue with a botanist that actually a tomatoe or a pumpkin is a vegetable not a fruit. Botanically they’re right but who cares? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax A tax (from the Latin taxo) is a mandatory financial charge or some other type of levy imposed upon a taxpayer (an individual or other legal entity) by a governmental organization in order to fund various public expenditures.[1] A failure to pay, along with evasion of or resistance to taxation, is punishable by law. Taxes consist of direct or indirect taxes and may be paid in money or as its labour equivalent.
quietbritishjim 8y ago
The parent comment said: > I paid 500€ per month for healthcare You misquoted that as: > 500EUR for your use of healthcare that month (Emphasis mine.) Their original statement was correct (assuming that is what they paid!) and didn't sound like a complaint to me, just a factual correction.
- CloudNetworking 8y ago
  Technically correct, the best kind of correct :-)

hh3k0 8y ago

500 Euro per month? What is the name of your insurance provider? I have never heard of such outrageously priced healthcare plans (private providers excluded, of course).

martin_a 8y ago
In Germany, and this might apply to other states of the EU too, you'll pay a fixed percentage of your loan for healthcare services. For Germany it's around 14-15% of your monthly income before taxes. So, if you earn well, you'll also have to pay a bigger sum for healthcare services.
- bkolobara 8y ago
  If you earn more than 50k Euro per year you can opt in for private health insurance instead. This greatly reduces the cost of insurance if you have big income. You can get good private insurance for 250-400Euro/month depending on your age.
  - watt 8y ago
    ... which will balloon to 600, 800 Euro/month, as you get older. And if don't maintain the same level of income as you retire, you might have another thing coming - the public insurance will not welcome you back.
  - Brotkrumen 8y ago
    And once you get older, your private insurance premiums rise, which you may not be able to afford. Public insurers won't let you back in.
    - martin_a 8y ago
      > Public insurers won't let you back in. I find this perfectly valid and think we should get rid of private health insurance at all. It's undermining our system, pretty much like pension for state workers and alike. We really need to unify this system, imho.

eastendguy 8y ago

In other words: The direct cost of the insulin for the average German is not $55, but $0 - since it is covered by the mandatory health insurance. That said, don't worry that you do not get enough back from your health insurance. This will come soon enough when you get older ;-)

basch 8y ago
Are people not understanding how drug prices work? Intellectual property law is a way for government to grant exclusivity to one firm. This whole "you can get it for x in Canada and y in Germany" is a silly conversation. It's not like it costs 1000x to manufacturer the drug here vs there. The R&D and marketing costs are amortized over the period of exclusivity. Saying "you can just go to Canada to get it" just means "im going to circumvent intellectual property law." It's kind of like, but not quite, piracy. You're choosing where and when which laws apply to you. It also kicks the can down to the rest of the people buying the drug, because we know the pharma actuaries arent going to price their drug at a loss. And then on top of that, like you say, these prices people pay AFTER insurance arent what the cost of the drug is to the population, its an already subsidized price. Germans and Canadians are getting the drug cheaper not only because they have different laws, but because the R&D recovery isnt evenly split between country, they take their money where they can get it. Insulin SHOULD be generic by now (the patent on long-acting synthetic insulin expired in 2014), but the companies continually improve it and always sell the latest variant. And of course Doctors are going to prescribe what works best.
- DanBC 8y ago
  > but because the R&D recovery isnt evenly split between country, This point, which always comes up in these threads, has already been debunked both in those other threads, but it was even debunked here before you made this comment.
  - basch 8y ago
    You're saying drug companies make an equal amount of extra money, after manufacturing costs, in every country?

JauntTrooper 8y ago

Here in the US I pay $700 a month for health insurance for my family, with my employer contributing another $1,200. I have a $3,000 deductible, so the first $3,000 of expenses every year are not covered. Above that I pay 20% of costs. I also pay 1.45% of all income for Medicare, which I will not be eligible for until I'm 65, a few decades away. My employer pays an additional 1.45% on my behalf and I pay an additional 0.9% surcharge on all household income over $250k. I'd love to start my own company but health insurance costs are a big impediment. I have young kids, I can't leave my family underinsured. We're healthy now thankfully, but what if one of us gets cancer or is in a car accident and we're hit with $500k+ bills (or worse - if we can't get the right treatment)? I don't know how other people do it.