5 ms·
If this is a compelling argument against gouvernment intervention, then why does it work so much better in europe where all three sectors are state-owned? The b
by fxj 8y ago
If this is a compelling argument against gouvernment intervention, then why does it work so much better in europe where all three sectors are state-owned? The best example is switzerland, where the costs are a fraction of the costs in the U.S ( and which is not a "socialist" country at all).
- pfisch 8y agoSwitzerland doesn't lead the world in pharmaceutical development. Our health system has been captured by special interests specifically because we have let it grow so big. Whenever I bring up this point I see downvotes. What I would love instead is a counter example of a country whose largest economic sectors do not capture the government and then have a huge hand in dictating policy in those sectors. Our government intervention in the education market with student loans is just an awful system that encourages prices to continue to rise.
- CaptainZapp 8y agoSwitzerland doesn't lead the world in pharmaceutical development. Uhh, Roche? (which also owns Genentech) Novartis?
- benj111 8y agoI think you're getting downvotes because the 2 aren't mutually exclusive. You can lead the world in pharma and have it captured by special interests. Infact I would say its almost inevitable. Now that's not to say that your point about it being bad isn't legitimate.
- fxj 8y agoTop pharmaceutical companies with revenue greater than $10 billion Rank Company 2016 USD billions 1 Johnson & Johnson NYSE: JNJ 71.89 2 Roche SIX: ROG 50.11 3 Pfizer NYSE: PFE 52.82 4 Novartis NYSE: NVS 48.52 Number 2 and Number 4 are swiss companies.
- coldtea 8y agoHow is this relevant? 2 and 4 can still have most of their revenues from where 1 and 3 have them (e.g. not by blood-sucking the Swiss society).
- dagw 8y agoThe US accounts for roughly 50% of Roche pharmaceutical revenue, so pretty much.
- benj111 8y agoThey don't sell just in Switzerland though, they sell worldwide, most of their money is probably made in the US.
- dagw 8y agoA lot of J&J's revenue comes from non-pharmaceutical businesses. If you rank by pharmaceutical R&D spending instead Roche comes out ahead of J&J. If you rank by revenue from pharmaceutical sales Pfizer is nr 1 with Novartis and Roche 2 & 3
- refurb 8y agoThat’s just the legacy of acquisitions. A lot of Roche’s revenue (40%) comes from Genentech, an American company they acquired 10 years ago.
- anilakar 8y agoWhen someone complains that a free market does not work because it's not truly free, I always remind them that communism failed because it wasn't true communism. /s
- vkhorikov 8y agoExcept that you can point to cases where free market does work.
- coldtea 8y agoSo, just like you could point to cases where socialism did work? (E.g. changing the equality laws for men and women, rapidly industrializing an agrarian Russia, leading China to top global economy from a century plus slump, letting Cuba have a top notch and cost effective hospital system, and so on)
- oarsinsync 8y agoAs a sibling comment has pointed out, infrastructure is a good example. UK train networks are a superb example of something that did work great until privatised. The NHS is a good example too, but it requires one to look under the hood and see how many functions have been outsourced to private companies over the last ~20 years.
- vkhorikov 8y agoEvery single one of what you listed is either FUD or not an accomplishment of socialism. Specifically: - Cuba's hospitals are not top notch, to say the least. - Russia did the rapid industrializing but it already was on this way before the revolution and would be much better off should the socialist revolution never occurred. - The equality laws for men and women are not due to socialism. - China enjoyed the economic rise because they freed the marked not because they tied it, it's the opposite of socialism.
- coldtea 8y ago
- tomp 8y agoAFAIK healthcare (insurance companies and many hospitals) are private in Switzerland.
- solidsnack9000 8y agoHealthcare isn’t state owned, or even single payer in Switzerland. Everyone pays for their own insurance. The rate they pay is fixed by the state but all the assets — the insurance companies, the hospitals, the insurance policies — are in private hands. In Germany none of that stuff is state owned, either. This is one of the strangest things about the healthcare debate in the United States: we frequently contrast our system with “public” systems that are actually well regulated private systems.
- fxj 8y agoIt is called gesetzliche Krankenversicherung in Germany https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetzliche_Krankenversicherung https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetzliche_Krankenversicherun... and is 100% state-controlled.
- lentil_soup 8y agoit is not 100% state-controlled. A lot of the fees and cost are indeed state-controlled as in set by the state, but the actual insurance companies, clinics, etc are private.
- fxj 8y agoIt is a little bit more complicated: The budget of the "gesetzliche Krankenkasse" is set by the gouvernment. So yes, it is not owned by the state, but in reality it is completely controlled by the state. There are, however, private insurance companies in germany which are free to do what they want. Everybody under a certain salary limit has to be insured by the "gesetzliche" and only if they earn more than a certain amount they can leave it and have a private insurance or none at all. There are many discussions whether this system should be changed to a state onwed only system, because it would be more efficient. http://www.spiegel.de/thema/gesundheitsreform_deutschland/ http://www.spiegel.de/thema/gesundheitsreform_deutschland/
- solidsnack9000 8y agoThank you for the reference. The insurance companies — die Krankenkassen — are indeed state controlled and there are careful and very specific regulations regarding their funding and expenditures. Everyone is obliged to be in one and they are all expected to provide certain basic services. That’s not the same thing as being state owned. Everyone has to be in one but there isn’t only one. Some are connected to regions and some to major industrial consortiums, like Audi. It’s a small distinction, perhaps — but falsity proves anything. If it’s not state owned, it’s not, and we might as well not obscure debate about the US healthcare system with untruth.