4 ms·

Take this with a grain of salt -- I think I understand Japan after living here for a while, but my "while" is <10 years and in the end it's hard to understand J

Take this with a grain of salt -- I think I understand Japan after living here for a while, but my "while" is <10 years and in the end it's hard to understand Japan as well as a native Japanese person might. Anyway here are a few: - Excessive Politeness <-> Passive Aggression (once you over-step or under-step) - Dedication to Professionalism <-> Overworking & <x>-theatre (the appearance of working hard becomes paramount) - Pressure to behave "properly" <-> [Ex|Im]plosion of "improper" behavior - Prioritizing the group <-> Normalization of oppression (ex. someone putting up with something that isn't right to avoid perturbing the group dynamic) - Propensity to save money <-> Less economic liquidity (whether this is good or bad for an economy is very much up for debate) - Emphasis on success/reputation <-> Very risk averse behavior Weirdly enough, in my opinion all of these things are what make japan what it is, and partially what makes it interesting. I haven't checked but surely Japan is the most homogeneous large successful nation out there, with a very distinct culture. I feel like I understand it because once you see the other side of some of these behaviors, it just clicks -- some of it is just historical and requires much more research (could japan have been a matriarchal society? maybe?), but a lot of it just kind of obvious based on the values held by a populace that is so largely homogeneous in culture. Again, I'm not an expert in Japanese culture, that takes decades of work and research -- but I've found a lot of these fairly obvious to see over the years.

mikekchar 8y ago
> Excessive Politeness <-> Passive Aggression (once you over-step or under-step) One thing I learned (the bad way) is that people at work will be nice to you and avoid confrontation and argument to an extraordinary extent. But if you push them too far and get into an argument.... that's it. You've ruined that relationship pretty much for ever. Unfortunately it took me a couple of tries to understand the nuance of that :-(
- hardwaresofton 8y ago
  Yeah that's the thing -- another thing is the propensity for people to hold to pretty meaningless relationships just for appearance sake. I think it's contributing to the loneliness issues here -- people are nice to each other but don't seem to ever actually connect. People will say they've "known" someone for 5 years, when they at most speak once or twice every year (and often never touch on anything substantial, either). I can't imagine how petty high society is here, or how much backbiting there is at the local HOA/neighborhood meetings -- I suspect it's worse than the US (because at the very least people will confront and settle an issue there, instead of leaving a minefield), but I will likely never find out. I'm really trying to keep it light, but there is a lot to the underbelly of japanese culture that isn't so great, but all that said, it's a fantastic place to live, the cost of living is low (RIP japanese work force wages), public transportation is amazing, people are wonderful, there's a wide variety of influences and culture to sample. Here's a light-hearted positive anecdote -- last year I left my wallet on a bus I was riding, and when realizing ~30 minutes later, I stopped a bus going the same direction to ask if the same buses came back (as in, would the same bus I left my wallet on come back the other way), and the driver not only confirmed, but also took out some stationery and wrote the number for the bus depot, and the called and coordinated extremely professionally. It was so professional that I was even a bit ashamed for sounding flustered on the phone. To balance out that light-hearted positive anecdote -- don't ever go to a Japanese governmental agency without the right paperwork/seals/etc, it very likely will not end well for you.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    Sorry for being chatty, but I just had to laugh. I'm in the middle of renewing my work visa for the UK (so I can travel there for work from time to time). I'm sweating bullets... but then reading your message I realised, "Wait. It's not Japan" :-) But, yeah. It's best to keep it light in your own head. "Going up against Japan" is like going up against a brick wall. If you start getting upset about something you're just going to wreck yourself. Japan will not change. Until it does, of course. And then it will change literally overnight for no discernible reason and you'll be left wondering, "How the heck did everybody know to change???"
    - hardwaresofton 8y ago
      Absolutely no problem! I 1000% agree, submitting paperwork/doing some official function for any other country (except maybe Germany? I've heard they live up to the reputation) is a walk in the park once you've been on the wrong side of some transaction in Japan's bureaucracy. > But, yeah. It's best to keep it light in your own head. "Going up against Japan" is like going up against a brick wall. If you start getting upset about something you're just going to wreck yourself. Japan will not change. Until it does, of course. And then it will change literally overnight for no discernible reason and you'll be left wondering, "How the heck did everybody know to change???" This is so true. Japan will pull a 180 with near zero warning -- one of the biggest things here is the constant contradiction/juxtaposition of opposing forces -- I have to admit I just can't reason about some things. The example is a bit out there, but I could see gay marriage laws being reversed in that kind of manner -- there doesn't seem to be the judeo-christian stigma here, and most people seem to be neutral (younger people's attitudes aren't actually shifting that far from older generations) so it's the kind of thing that I expect might just happen at some point and everyone will be like "oh, yeah, of course". Another fun anecdote (which may or may not be true) for others reading this (I assume mikekchar already knows) -- The reason you basically can never find trash cans around Tokyo is likely due to the subway sarin gas attack of 1995, Japan was basically like "can't bomb us if we don't have trashcans to put the bombs in", and that was that. I am thoroughly convinced the reason Tokyo isn't filled with litter is due to cleanliness being ingrained in the Japanese national identity -- you basically learn to just hold on to your trash (internalize your inconvenience) until you get home or to somewhere with a trash can.
- hrktb 8y ago
  It's interesting how it clashes in technical circles, where a lot of things are very much black or white, and there a culture of terseness and going to the point. The place I worked had that smooth and human focused vibe for the HR and marketing dept, and a mildly confrontational and straight to the point bias in the engineering dept.
YinglingLight 8y ago
There is a level of social cohesiveness amongst the Japanese in Japan that Westerners haven't had in a century.
charliebrownau 8y ago
Japan + EU and the West won't survive without * Removing Duluth Model * treating everyone as INDIVIDUALS * treating everyone to the SAME STANDARD * Removing LEFT , Feminism , Diversity from power and government funded * Removing ISLAM * Removing Black South Africans * Removing LEFT WING "progressive" * Removing Feminism (socialism) Also one of the main factors of Japan is they refuse to remove the DULUTH MODEL and Socialist "tradition" marriage laws to be fair to BOTH people, not just simp to women at the expense of men ================================================= How to fix Marriage in the west+EU+JP+South Korea+Russia+China * Fault divorce, not no fault * One LAW for everyone with the SAME punishment for ALL. * REMOVE Duluth Model from LAW+Courts+Police * REMOVE PUSSY PASS * False rape and False Sexual Assault to be convicted * Ban Abortion * Remove Child support * Remove Vagmony (Alimony) * Remove forced 50% of other person's assets * False rape/assault claim register database * Kid goes to the BEST person Not automatically to the mother * DNA test at all birth of kids
orasis 8y ago
Work theatre absolutely drove me nuts. It’s an insidious form of dishonesty.

mikekchar 8y ago

> Excessive Politeness <-> Passive Aggression (once you over-step or under-step) One thing I learned (the bad way) is that people at work will be nice to you and avoid confrontation and argument to an extraordinary extent. But if you push them too far and get into an argument.... that's it. You've ruined that relationship pretty much for ever. Unfortunately it took me a couple of tries to understand the nuance of that :-(

hardwaresofton 8y ago
Yeah that's the thing -- another thing is the propensity for people to hold to pretty meaningless relationships just for appearance sake. I think it's contributing to the loneliness issues here -- people are nice to each other but don't seem to ever actually connect. People will say they've "known" someone for 5 years, when they at most speak once or twice every year (and often never touch on anything substantial, either). I can't imagine how petty high society is here, or how much backbiting there is at the local HOA/neighborhood meetings -- I suspect it's worse than the US (because at the very least people will confront and settle an issue there, instead of leaving a minefield), but I will likely never find out. I'm really trying to keep it light, but there is a lot to the underbelly of japanese culture that isn't so great, but all that said, it's a fantastic place to live, the cost of living is low (RIP japanese work force wages), public transportation is amazing, people are wonderful, there's a wide variety of influences and culture to sample. Here's a light-hearted positive anecdote -- last year I left my wallet on a bus I was riding, and when realizing ~30 minutes later, I stopped a bus going the same direction to ask if the same buses came back (as in, would the same bus I left my wallet on come back the other way), and the driver not only confirmed, but also took out some stationery and wrote the number for the bus depot, and the called and coordinated extremely professionally. It was so professional that I was even a bit ashamed for sounding flustered on the phone. To balance out that light-hearted positive anecdote -- don't ever go to a Japanese governmental agency without the right paperwork/seals/etc, it very likely will not end well for you.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  Sorry for being chatty, but I just had to laugh. I'm in the middle of renewing my work visa for the UK (so I can travel there for work from time to time). I'm sweating bullets... but then reading your message I realised, "Wait. It's not Japan" :-) But, yeah. It's best to keep it light in your own head. "Going up against Japan" is like going up against a brick wall. If you start getting upset about something you're just going to wreck yourself. Japan will not change. Until it does, of course. And then it will change literally overnight for no discernible reason and you'll be left wondering, "How the heck did everybody know to change???"
  - hardwaresofton 8y ago
    Absolutely no problem! I 1000% agree, submitting paperwork/doing some official function for any other country (except maybe Germany? I've heard they live up to the reputation) is a walk in the park once you've been on the wrong side of some transaction in Japan's bureaucracy. > But, yeah. It's best to keep it light in your own head. "Going up against Japan" is like going up against a brick wall. If you start getting upset about something you're just going to wreck yourself. Japan will not change. Until it does, of course. And then it will change literally overnight for no discernible reason and you'll be left wondering, "How the heck did everybody know to change???" This is so true. Japan will pull a 180 with near zero warning -- one of the biggest things here is the constant contradiction/juxtaposition of opposing forces -- I have to admit I just can't reason about some things. The example is a bit out there, but I could see gay marriage laws being reversed in that kind of manner -- there doesn't seem to be the judeo-christian stigma here, and most people seem to be neutral (younger people's attitudes aren't actually shifting that far from older generations) so it's the kind of thing that I expect might just happen at some point and everyone will be like "oh, yeah, of course". Another fun anecdote (which may or may not be true) for others reading this (I assume mikekchar already knows) -- The reason you basically can never find trash cans around Tokyo is likely due to the subway sarin gas attack of 1995, Japan was basically like "can't bomb us if we don't have trashcans to put the bombs in", and that was that. I am thoroughly convinced the reason Tokyo isn't filled with litter is due to cleanliness being ingrained in the Japanese national identity -- you basically learn to just hold on to your trash (internalize your inconvenience) until you get home or to somewhere with a trash can.
hrktb 8y ago
It's interesting how it clashes in technical circles, where a lot of things are very much black or white, and there a culture of terseness and going to the point. The place I worked had that smooth and human focused vibe for the HR and marketing dept, and a mildly confrontational and straight to the point bias in the engineering dept.

YinglingLight 8y ago

There is a level of social cohesiveness amongst the Japanese in Japan that Westerners haven't had in a century.

charliebrownau 8y ago

Japan + EU and the West won't survive without * Removing Duluth Model * treating everyone as INDIVIDUALS * treating everyone to the SAME STANDARD * Removing LEFT , Feminism , Diversity from power and government funded * Removing ISLAM * Removing Black South Africans * Removing LEFT WING "progressive" * Removing Feminism (socialism) Also one of the main factors of Japan is they refuse to remove the DULUTH MODEL and Socialist "tradition" marriage laws to be fair to BOTH people, not just simp to women at the expense of men ================================================= How to fix Marriage in the west+EU+JP+South Korea+Russia+China * Fault divorce, not no fault * One LAW for everyone with the SAME punishment for ALL. * REMOVE Duluth Model from LAW+Courts+Police * REMOVE PUSSY PASS * False rape and False Sexual Assault to be convicted * Ban Abortion * Remove Child support * Remove Vagmony (Alimony) * Remove forced 50% of other person's assets * False rape/assault claim register database * Kid goes to the BEST person Not automatically to the mother * DNA test at all birth of kids

orasis 8y ago

Work theatre absolutely drove me nuts. It’s an insidious form of dishonesty.