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> Call me old fashioned No, its not really a matter of being old fashioned - it's a matter of being authoritarian. > but I do not think that a society that sm

> Call me old fashioned No, its not really a matter of being old fashioned - it's a matter of being authoritarian. > but I do not think that a society that smokes weed is better than a society that does not. The society that doesn't forbid people who want to smoke to do so is better because it is more free. That is valuable in itself, although this point seems to have fallen out of fashion on HN these days.

markdown 8y ago
> is better because it is more free Citation needed. Freedom isn't all it's made out to be. I'd much rather give up the freedom to consume hard drugs than live free in a society filled with drug addicts. Likewise I'm happy to forgo the freedom to own a gun if it means nobody else in my community has one.
- shar3333f 8y ago
  > I'd much rather give up the freedom to consume hard drugs than live free in a society filled with drug addicts. Except western society is filled with drug addicts despite having the freedom to consume removed. People are going to consume drugs and develop maladaptive coping mechanisms of one sort or another regardless of what's legal or not. Personal freedom is great because people aren't punished for having personal issues.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  This exchange is really interesting to me because it's really exactly the exchange that I've seen between Americans and Japanese people when they talk about a variety of topics (not just drugs). Americans (and to a certain extent people from some other western countries) seem to really value freedom culturally. It is to the point where even contemplating exchanging some freedom to gain something else is just obviously morally wrong without having to go through the necessity of justifying it. I often say that one of the reasons why many Americans (and British people as well) have difficulty in Japan is because both American (and British) culture are heavily moral, but that they have completely different values than Japanese culture. Both think the other completely immoral at times. The general Japanese response to the general American comment that people must be free is that individual's must not be selfish. The idea is that you decide as a community what kind of society you want and everybody has to be unselfish and give up some personal freedom to achieve this. I get along well in Japan mainly because this is the kind of culture I enjoy. I get very frustrated in the freedom loving, but ultimately comparatively selfish environment of my origin, Canada.
  - magduf 8y ago
    >Both think the other completely immoral at times. What kind of things in Japan or Japanese culture do Westerners think is outright immoral?
    - mikekchar 8y ago
      The absolute biggest one is lying to your face :-) In Japan, it is really impolite to be overly critical of people or to act in an unfriendly manner. Everybody you meet will be nice to you and if you say, "I like underwater basket weaving" they will say, "Oh yes. That is very interesting" and smile. If you unintentionally force them into a confrontation like by saying, "Do you really think it is interesting? Do you like underwater basket weaving too", they will say, "Oh yes. I like underwater basket weaving" just to escape the conversation. One of the side effects of this is that people can be super friendly to you, but you never really know if they like you or not. I have an ex colleague who was very helpful to me when I moved here. He looked out for me and even invited me to his home for dinner many, many times. He hooked me up with local groups, etc, etc. He even occasionally still asks me to go to some local events these days. But I'm pretty sure he hates my guts. He doesn't even send me a new years card even though I send him one (which seems like a pretty weird criteria for judging if someone likes you or not, but...) You just don't know. People will never tell you outright stuff like this and they will "lead you on". Virtually every expat I've known who has problems in Japan loves to jump on this issue. "People here are false", they will say. "You can't trust them. They will lie to your face." There is a concept called "tatemae" which is the face that you have to present to society and it's a concept that rubs many westerners completely the wrong way. Personally, I like it. I don't care one iota if my ex colleague likes me or not. He's been incredibly helpful to me. He treats me really well. He's been nothing other than a massive positive force in my life. Yeah, it's a shame we can't be friends, but that's life. Everybody treats me well here. Everybody is friendly. Everybody is nice to each other and treats you as if you are a friend, even if they don't know you -- even if they hate you. But... yeah... it takes some getting used to and some people really don't like it.
      - magduf 8y ago
- solidsnack9000 8y ago
  The principle behind what you’re saying really makes a lot of sense when we aren’t talking about law and the government. Freedom to self destruct isn’t of much help to anyone. All things being equal, we might be better off in a world where drugs just didn’t exist. The same is true when it comes to alcohol and cigarettes. It might even be true of guns. This is a circumstance we can create as a society through disapproval and gentle encouragement towards something else. The government is more limited in its means, though: if we want to get rid of smoking with the government, for example, then we are de facto going to be putting people in jail over nothing. Maybe it starts with a fine but if a fine is big enough to hurt there will be poor people who can’t pay and they will end up with tax problems and then with jail time. This whole concept of using the government to foster every desirable positive social outcome leads to authoritarianism and it’s a mistake. There are other organs of society we need to bring to bear, both to see the changes we want and to balance out the government itself.
- balfirevic 8y ago
  > I'd much rather give up the freedom to consume hard drugs than live free in a society filled with drug addicts It's interesting that you wrote this in first person. You can give up whatever freedoms you want, I don't care. But what you are actually saying is that you want to take those freedoms from others too. For some things that might be worth considering - freedom is very valuable but perhaps not infinitely so. But there needs to be an actual argument - "I don't desire that freedom so I don't want anyone to have it" is not it.
ekianjo 8y ago
> No, its not really a matter of being old fashioned - it's a matter of being authoritarian. Interesting line of thought, but how far do you take it? Legalize all drugs, even the ones that may end up killing people, or make them completely dependent? A society that values Freedom needs to ensure its people remain free, and there are clearly substances out there that can make you a slave. How do you deal with that?
- gerbilly 8y ago
  Yes legalise all of them like Portugal did, but spend all of the enforcement budget on rehabilitation and re-integrating addicts into society.[1] What makes a drug addictive is not the substance itself, but the environment which surrounds the 'addict'. An environment that is poor in social connections and purpose makes drugs more addictive to the users. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
  - GuB-42 8y ago
    This is a common misconception that Portugal legalized all drugs. They decriminalized personal drug use and possession of low quantities. Drug use is still illegal. The difference is that you won't face justice and you won't go to prison. Instead, you will face a commission and they may send you to a rehabilitation center, or fine you for a reasonable amount. Drug trafficking is still a crime which carries heavy penalties.
- okmokmz 8y ago
  >Legalize all drugs, even the ones that may end up killing people, or make them completely dependent? Yes, and then use the massive amount of money that goes to militarizing police and incarcerating none violent drug offenders for public health services such as counselors, rehabilitation, safe usage areas, HIV/hep testing, etc
- balfirevic 8y ago
  > Interesting line of thought, but how far do you take it? That's a good question and a correct perspective for arguing these kinds of policies. The answer is "as far as possible". Personal freedom should be default starting position. If it is going to be taken away it should be done in a way that is as minimal as possible while getting the best bang for the buck in terms of minimizing actual harm (with actual evidence backing it up). "I don't like other people doing drugs, so we should put them in jail for that" does not meet this standard (or any standard worthy of it's name, to be frank). "People will harm themselves by doing drugs so we will ruin their lives and put them in jail while spending way more money than it would take to actually help them" also doesn't meet this standard.

markdown 8y ago

> is better because it is more free Citation needed. Freedom isn't all it's made out to be. I'd much rather give up the freedom to consume hard drugs than live free in a society filled with drug addicts. Likewise I'm happy to forgo the freedom to own a gun if it means nobody else in my community has one.

shar3333f 8y ago
> I'd much rather give up the freedom to consume hard drugs than live free in a society filled with drug addicts. Except western society is filled with drug addicts despite having the freedom to consume removed. People are going to consume drugs and develop maladaptive coping mechanisms of one sort or another regardless of what's legal or not. Personal freedom is great because people aren't punished for having personal issues.
mikekchar 8y ago
This exchange is really interesting to me because it's really exactly the exchange that I've seen between Americans and Japanese people when they talk about a variety of topics (not just drugs). Americans (and to a certain extent people from some other western countries) seem to really value freedom culturally. It is to the point where even contemplating exchanging some freedom to gain something else is just obviously morally wrong without having to go through the necessity of justifying it. I often say that one of the reasons why many Americans (and British people as well) have difficulty in Japan is because both American (and British) culture are heavily moral, but that they have completely different values than Japanese culture. Both think the other completely immoral at times. The general Japanese response to the general American comment that people must be free is that individual's must not be selfish. The idea is that you decide as a community what kind of society you want and everybody has to be unselfish and give up some personal freedom to achieve this. I get along well in Japan mainly because this is the kind of culture I enjoy. I get very frustrated in the freedom loving, but ultimately comparatively selfish environment of my origin, Canada.
- magduf 8y ago
  >Both think the other completely immoral at times. What kind of things in Japan or Japanese culture do Westerners think is outright immoral?
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    The absolute biggest one is lying to your face :-) In Japan, it is really impolite to be overly critical of people or to act in an unfriendly manner. Everybody you meet will be nice to you and if you say, "I like underwater basket weaving" they will say, "Oh yes. That is very interesting" and smile. If you unintentionally force them into a confrontation like by saying, "Do you really think it is interesting? Do you like underwater basket weaving too", they will say, "Oh yes. I like underwater basket weaving" just to escape the conversation. One of the side effects of this is that people can be super friendly to you, but you never really know if they like you or not. I have an ex colleague who was very helpful to me when I moved here. He looked out for me and even invited me to his home for dinner many, many times. He hooked me up with local groups, etc, etc. He even occasionally still asks me to go to some local events these days. But I'm pretty sure he hates my guts. He doesn't even send me a new years card even though I send him one (which seems like a pretty weird criteria for judging if someone likes you or not, but...) You just don't know. People will never tell you outright stuff like this and they will "lead you on". Virtually every expat I've known who has problems in Japan loves to jump on this issue. "People here are false", they will say. "You can't trust them. They will lie to your face." There is a concept called "tatemae" which is the face that you have to present to society and it's a concept that rubs many westerners completely the wrong way. Personally, I like it. I don't care one iota if my ex colleague likes me or not. He's been incredibly helpful to me. He treats me really well. He's been nothing other than a massive positive force in my life. Yeah, it's a shame we can't be friends, but that's life. Everybody treats me well here. Everybody is friendly. Everybody is nice to each other and treats you as if you are a friend, even if they don't know you -- even if they hate you. But... yeah... it takes some getting used to and some people really don't like it.
    - magduf 8y ago
solidsnack9000 8y ago
The principle behind what you’re saying really makes a lot of sense when we aren’t talking about law and the government. Freedom to self destruct isn’t of much help to anyone. All things being equal, we might be better off in a world where drugs just didn’t exist. The same is true when it comes to alcohol and cigarettes. It might even be true of guns. This is a circumstance we can create as a society through disapproval and gentle encouragement towards something else. The government is more limited in its means, though: if we want to get rid of smoking with the government, for example, then we are de facto going to be putting people in jail over nothing. Maybe it starts with a fine but if a fine is big enough to hurt there will be poor people who can’t pay and they will end up with tax problems and then with jail time. This whole concept of using the government to foster every desirable positive social outcome leads to authoritarianism and it’s a mistake. There are other organs of society we need to bring to bear, both to see the changes we want and to balance out the government itself.
balfirevic 8y ago
> I'd much rather give up the freedom to consume hard drugs than live free in a society filled with drug addicts It's interesting that you wrote this in first person. You can give up whatever freedoms you want, I don't care. But what you are actually saying is that you want to take those freedoms from others too. For some things that might be worth considering - freedom is very valuable but perhaps not infinitely so. But there needs to be an actual argument - "I don't desire that freedom so I don't want anyone to have it" is not it.

ekianjo 8y ago

> No, its not really a matter of being old fashioned - it's a matter of being authoritarian. Interesting line of thought, but how far do you take it? Legalize all drugs, even the ones that may end up killing people, or make them completely dependent? A society that values Freedom needs to ensure its people remain free, and there are clearly substances out there that can make you a slave. How do you deal with that?

gerbilly 8y ago
Yes legalise all of them like Portugal did, but spend all of the enforcement budget on rehabilitation and re-integrating addicts into society.[1] What makes a drug addictive is not the substance itself, but the environment which surrounds the 'addict'. An environment that is poor in social connections and purpose makes drugs more addictive to the users. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_Park
- GuB-42 8y ago
  This is a common misconception that Portugal legalized all drugs. They decriminalized personal drug use and possession of low quantities. Drug use is still illegal. The difference is that you won't face justice and you won't go to prison. Instead, you will face a commission and they may send you to a rehabilitation center, or fine you for a reasonable amount. Drug trafficking is still a crime which carries heavy penalties.
okmokmz 8y ago
>Legalize all drugs, even the ones that may end up killing people, or make them completely dependent? Yes, and then use the massive amount of money that goes to militarizing police and incarcerating none violent drug offenders for public health services such as counselors, rehabilitation, safe usage areas, HIV/hep testing, etc
balfirevic 8y ago
> Interesting line of thought, but how far do you take it? That's a good question and a correct perspective for arguing these kinds of policies. The answer is "as far as possible". Personal freedom should be default starting position. If it is going to be taken away it should be done in a way that is as minimal as possible while getting the best bang for the buck in terms of minimizing actual harm (with actual evidence backing it up). "I don't like other people doing drugs, so we should put them in jail for that" does not meet this standard (or any standard worthy of it's name, to be frank). "People will harm themselves by doing drugs so we will ruin their lives and put them in jail while spending way more money than it would take to actually help them" also doesn't meet this standard.