10 ms·

I don't want to live in a world where the next superpower blocks websites as they suit them, suppress freedom of speech and journalism, exploit prisoners, relig

I don't want to live in a world where the next superpower blocks websites as they suit them, suppress freedom of speech and journalism, exploit prisoners, religious segregation camps, employing social dystopian systems and is led by unimpeachable, unchallenged leader who has elected himself with a 1000-0 vote as perpetual president of the country. It is sad to see that the rest of the world has to bend down to serve this repressive state. I've been to China and the people there are the same as us - I despise the party, not the people. The next generation that grows up there will not have the perspective of what it means to live in a free democratic country.

apostacy 8y ago
> suppress freedom of speech, and journalism, ... We've lost the right to complain about Chinese censorship. We actually owe the Chinese an apology for criticizing them. They've clearly been vindicated for the 21st century. When New Zealand and Australia blocked some of the most popular websites on the Internet at the backbone, I think that was the last straw for the west making any claims to having the moral high ground. Google, Facebook, and the other de-facto governing bodies of our Internet flaunt their suppression of voices that they don't like. At least the Chinese government seems mostly to be about keeping public order. Companies like Google and Apple will ban your app in revenge for you not bowing to them, while simultaneously distributing Saudi Government wife-tracking apps[1]. And Google loves the Chinese government and wants very much to be in their good graces, and is selling out innocent people to do it. So really how are they any different? The Chinese are just about power, but they don't insult you with lies. They don't lie to you that it is in the name of security, or worse, in the name of morality. To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable using Chinese Internet, because at least their censorship is predictable, relatively fair, and only concerned with preventing the spread of fake news. You can be politically incorrect and rude if you want, and not worry about police showing up at your door, like in The UK and Germany. Unless you are legitimately making terroristic threats, it is very unlikely you will ever get the Chinese government visiting you at home. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19291458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19291458
- koboll 8y ago
  Meanwhile, in the real world where we can't all be nihilists, basic human freedoms still matter and China is a grave threat to them.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  >To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable using Chinese Internet, because at least their censorship is predictable, relatively fair, and only concerned with preventing the spread of fake news. If the Chinese internet isn't that bad, then Google isn't bad for collaboration, and then the indictment of the West doesn't work. Likewise if Google is bad for wanting to turn in people to the Chinese government, then China is bad for having people turned in to them. Even then, there's a certain irony to saying, "they're stamping my boot into my face, but it's not so bad because they're not pretending they aren't." In the US the government had to pretend that the NSA wasn't really breaking the law, because the people still have some power and the law some meaning. Now, if you want to say, "they're both evil," fine. Evil is a binary thing, so it naturally sidesteps the argument about who is stepping on your toes and who is sawing them off. Still, Chariman Xao sure is holding a sharp saw over there... If you forget that there are degrees of the problem you will not be able to find your way towards improvement. It's like gradient descent in optimization.
  - apostacy 8y ago
    > Now, if you want to say, "they're both evil," fine. Evil is a binary thing, so it naturally sidesteps the argument about who is stepping on your toes and who is sawing them off. Still, Chariman Xao sure is holding a sharp saw over there... I should have used a sarcasm tag. YES, I am saying they're both evil. And I'm disgusted that American's are being just as bad as the Chinese government. And if I must choose, I'd rather have the Chinese style of honest authoritarianism than the smug and dishonest authoritarianism that is encroaching on the west. I'm not a Chinese shill. I used to be proud of my country. I used to actually admire Google. And now they are licking the boots of the Chinese government. There are almost certainly innocent people who are dying in prison camps because of indifference, if not outright assistance of our Silicon Valley robber barons. When American corporations assisted in other genocides during WWII, we didn't invite their executives to give freaking TED talks. And the smugness. At least the oil executives and weapons dealers who funded both sides of bloody wars didn't preach to us about how woke they were while they were doing it. And on top of everything else, a large part of the tech community celebrates censorship now. So please forgive me for seeing hypocrisy. (that was sarcasm).
Razengan 8y ago
Perhaps, developers who have taken a moral stance should put a notice on their websites/services against authoritarian governments, when accessed from those countries.
- spectramax 8y ago
  I agree, instead of "giving in", we as technologists should take the opportunity to provide some context as to why our website is not working as intended. But, all bets are all if you lose significant share of your business as morality takes a backseat when it comes to profitability, market share and business goals.
  - Razengan 8y ago
    Then we should own up to the fact that the world is basically a plutocracy now, at all levels of society, and drop all pretenses to the contrary.
- majia 8y ago
  It’s better to put some vpn resources on their websites. Don’t tell people what is “bad” like authoritarian governments do; let them see what’s beyond the firewall and decide for themselves.
Leary 8y ago
And making your app/website work in China is gonna change any of this how?
- serf 8y ago
  More groups of people cope with restrictions, more momentum towards doing so; less protest against it. it's a pretty simple idea. If you work within a framework, you're complicit by default. You can look at it two ways : You're helping the folks in China; or you're helping the world's largest walled garden remain that way by adding content.
- snaky 8y ago
  Not making your app or website work in China, or actively preventing it from work in China, is not gonna change any of this either.
amiraliakbari 8y ago
I agree, but my first impression was that you were talking about the US! I live in Iran and many sites are simply blocked for all people here because of sanctions. I know there are reasons and such for these sanctions, but as you said people are the same and not all those reasons might be valid. Anyways, blocked sites here include many programming resources including Java, Go and Android, many services like Slack, and even lots of sites hosted on GCP. Also for most of people here, "unimpeachable, unchallenged leader" resembles Trump who cancelled agreements like JCOPA or Bush who atacked our neighbour countries. I'm not arguing that any of those actions are right or wrong, but many people are badly affected by the US more than they are affected by any dictator.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
r00fus 8y ago
Perhaps the open Internet is the aberration here. Look at my post history - while I’d like it to be otherwise I honestly believe the Internet as we know it will Balkanize/fragment - it’s a matter of time.
alexcnwy 8y ago
the internet will become impossible to censor (for everyone - it’s already easy for the rich to avoid censorship) when satellite connections become cheaper / faster / more accessible
- ISL 8y ago
  Only when it is not possible to direction-find a transceiver and place their owner in jail would satellite connections transcend censorship.
  - alexcnwy 8y ago
    when everyone has one
- freshm087 8y ago
  In many countries sending something over a satellite requires registration (which can be used for control subsequently), or even a license. Unless it will be a type of technology which is very hard to block, and locate, I wouldn't expect it to beat censorship.
  - alexcnwy 8y ago
    how do you imagine they would police it?
    - freshm087 8y ago
      They already do it: first of all, by controlling of import/sales of equipment, and by incentivizing citizens to tip police. Also, there are frequency control inspections which keep maps of radiotransmitting activity. It's easy to spot any new transmitter.
      - alexcnwy 8y ago
        That only works with a small number of transmitters. If Samsung or Apple released a phone with native satellite default support, it would be impossible to police. Censorship is doomed.
Barrin92 8y ago
>It is sad to see that the rest of the world has to bend down to serve this repressive state. To be honest it is not our place to tell the Chinese people how to govern themselves, that is for them to figure out. I don't see how we're 'serving' China. The US is already in an open trade war with the country, and many other regions are growing weary, but it is not up to us to interfere in the country's internal affairs.
dang 8y ago
Please don't post political/national rants to HN. They are all the same, making them tedious, and they lead to flamewars, which produce even-less-interesting scorched earth. None of this serves intellectual curiosity, which is what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- abc-xyz 8y ago
  I really don't understand this line of thinking.. if someone (whether it's a country, company, person) engage in evil behavior then of course we should do everything possible to dissuade others from supporting them until they change. It's possible for this site to serve intellectual curiosity without directly supporting an evil regime that put Muslims in concentration camps, engage in medical genocide (organ harvesting), and all sorts of human rights violations.
  - yorwba 8y ago
    Did spectramax's comment contain any new information for you? Do you think it contained new information for anyone? Judging by the responses, that's not the case. Posting what can be summed up as "The government of country X is evil." predictably leads to comparisons with the US government, all of which is just noise. It's certainly not going to dissuade anyone from supporting them, since nobody thinks of their actions as supporting them. If you actually want to change someone's behavior, you're going to need a different kind of argument and make sure to avoid flame-baiting.
    - abc-xyz 8y ago
      It doesn't need to contain new information in order to be relevant. Their behavior may not affect you but I can guarantee that it affects other people, such as myself. I believe doing what's the morally right thing to do is more important than earning a few extra bucks.
      - yorwba 8y ago

apostacy 8y ago

> suppress freedom of speech, and journalism, ... We've lost the right to complain about Chinese censorship. We actually owe the Chinese an apology for criticizing them. They've clearly been vindicated for the 21st century. When New Zealand and Australia blocked some of the most popular websites on the Internet at the backbone, I think that was the last straw for the west making any claims to having the moral high ground. Google, Facebook, and the other de-facto governing bodies of our Internet flaunt their suppression of voices that they don't like. At least the Chinese government seems mostly to be about keeping public order. Companies like Google and Apple will ban your app in revenge for you not bowing to them, while simultaneously distributing Saudi Government wife-tracking apps[1]. And Google loves the Chinese government and wants very much to be in their good graces, and is selling out innocent people to do it. So really how are they any different? The Chinese are just about power, but they don't insult you with lies. They don't lie to you that it is in the name of security, or worse, in the name of morality. To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable using Chinese Internet, because at least their censorship is predictable, relatively fair, and only concerned with preventing the spread of fake news. You can be politically incorrect and rude if you want, and not worry about police showing up at your door, like in The UK and Germany. Unless you are legitimately making terroristic threats, it is very unlikely you will ever get the Chinese government visiting you at home. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19291458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19291458

koboll 8y ago
Meanwhile, in the real world where we can't all be nihilists, basic human freedoms still matter and China is a grave threat to them.
whatshisface 8y ago
>To be honest, I'd feel more comfortable using Chinese Internet, because at least their censorship is predictable, relatively fair, and only concerned with preventing the spread of fake news. If the Chinese internet isn't that bad, then Google isn't bad for collaboration, and then the indictment of the West doesn't work. Likewise if Google is bad for wanting to turn in people to the Chinese government, then China is bad for having people turned in to them. Even then, there's a certain irony to saying, "they're stamping my boot into my face, but it's not so bad because they're not pretending they aren't." In the US the government had to pretend that the NSA wasn't really breaking the law, because the people still have some power and the law some meaning. Now, if you want to say, "they're both evil," fine. Evil is a binary thing, so it naturally sidesteps the argument about who is stepping on your toes and who is sawing them off. Still, Chariman Xao sure is holding a sharp saw over there... If you forget that there are degrees of the problem you will not be able to find your way towards improvement. It's like gradient descent in optimization.
- apostacy 8y ago
  > Now, if you want to say, "they're both evil," fine. Evil is a binary thing, so it naturally sidesteps the argument about who is stepping on your toes and who is sawing them off. Still, Chariman Xao sure is holding a sharp saw over there... I should have used a sarcasm tag. YES, I am saying they're both evil. And I'm disgusted that American's are being just as bad as the Chinese government. And if I must choose, I'd rather have the Chinese style of honest authoritarianism than the smug and dishonest authoritarianism that is encroaching on the west. I'm not a Chinese shill. I used to be proud of my country. I used to actually admire Google. And now they are licking the boots of the Chinese government. There are almost certainly innocent people who are dying in prison camps because of indifference, if not outright assistance of our Silicon Valley robber barons. When American corporations assisted in other genocides during WWII, we didn't invite their executives to give freaking TED talks. And the smugness. At least the oil executives and weapons dealers who funded both sides of bloody wars didn't preach to us about how woke they were while they were doing it. And on top of everything else, a large part of the tech community celebrates censorship now. So please forgive me for seeing hypocrisy. (that was sarcasm).

Razengan 8y ago

Perhaps, developers who have taken a moral stance should put a notice on their websites/services against authoritarian governments, when accessed from those countries.

spectramax 8y ago
I agree, instead of "giving in", we as technologists should take the opportunity to provide some context as to why our website is not working as intended. But, all bets are all if you lose significant share of your business as morality takes a backseat when it comes to profitability, market share and business goals.
- Razengan 8y ago
  Then we should own up to the fact that the world is basically a plutocracy now, at all levels of society, and drop all pretenses to the contrary.
majia 8y ago
It’s better to put some vpn resources on their websites. Don’t tell people what is “bad” like authoritarian governments do; let them see what’s beyond the firewall and decide for themselves.

Leary 8y ago

And making your app/website work in China is gonna change any of this how?

serf 8y ago
More groups of people cope with restrictions, more momentum towards doing so; less protest against it. it's a pretty simple idea. If you work within a framework, you're complicit by default. You can look at it two ways : You're helping the folks in China; or you're helping the world's largest walled garden remain that way by adding content.
snaky 8y ago
Not making your app or website work in China, or actively preventing it from work in China, is not gonna change any of this either.

amiraliakbari 8y ago

I agree, but my first impression was that you were talking about the US! I live in Iran and many sites are simply blocked for all people here because of sanctions. I know there are reasons and such for these sanctions, but as you said people are the same and not all those reasons might be valid. Anyways, blocked sites here include many programming resources including Java, Go and Android, many services like Slack, and even lots of sites hosted on GCP. Also for most of people here, "unimpeachable, unchallenged leader" resembles Trump who cancelled agreements like JCOPA or Bush who atacked our neighbour countries. I'm not arguing that any of those actions are right or wrong, but many people are badly affected by the US more than they are affected by any dictator.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

r00fus 8y ago

Perhaps the open Internet is the aberration here. Look at my post history - while I’d like it to be otherwise I honestly believe the Internet as we know it will Balkanize/fragment - it’s a matter of time.

alexcnwy 8y ago

the internet will become impossible to censor (for everyone - it’s already easy for the rich to avoid censorship) when satellite connections become cheaper / faster / more accessible

ISL 8y ago
Only when it is not possible to direction-find a transceiver and place their owner in jail would satellite connections transcend censorship.
- alexcnwy 8y ago
  when everyone has one
freshm087 8y ago
In many countries sending something over a satellite requires registration (which can be used for control subsequently), or even a license. Unless it will be a type of technology which is very hard to block, and locate, I wouldn't expect it to beat censorship.
- alexcnwy 8y ago
  how do you imagine they would police it?
  - freshm087 8y ago
    They already do it: first of all, by controlling of import/sales of equipment, and by incentivizing citizens to tip police. Also, there are frequency control inspections which keep maps of radiotransmitting activity. It's easy to spot any new transmitter.
    - alexcnwy 8y ago
      That only works with a small number of transmitters. If Samsung or Apple released a phone with native satellite default support, it would be impossible to police. Censorship is doomed.

Barrin92 8y ago

>It is sad to see that the rest of the world has to bend down to serve this repressive state. To be honest it is not our place to tell the Chinese people how to govern themselves, that is for them to figure out. I don't see how we're 'serving' China. The US is already in an open trade war with the country, and many other regions are growing weary, but it is not up to us to interfere in the country's internal affairs.

dang 8y ago

Please don't post political/national rants to HN. They are all the same, making them tedious, and they lead to flamewars, which produce even-less-interesting scorched earth. None of this serves intellectual curiosity, which is what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

abc-xyz 8y ago
I really don't understand this line of thinking.. if someone (whether it's a country, company, person) engage in evil behavior then of course we should do everything possible to dissuade others from supporting them until they change. It's possible for this site to serve intellectual curiosity without directly supporting an evil regime that put Muslims in concentration camps, engage in medical genocide (organ harvesting), and all sorts of human rights violations.
- yorwba 8y ago
  Did spectramax's comment contain any new information for you? Do you think it contained new information for anyone? Judging by the responses, that's not the case. Posting what can be summed up as "The government of country X is evil." predictably leads to comparisons with the US government, all of which is just noise. It's certainly not going to dissuade anyone from supporting them, since nobody thinks of their actions as supporting them. If you actually want to change someone's behavior, you're going to need a different kind of argument and make sure to avoid flame-baiting.
  - abc-xyz 8y ago
    It doesn't need to contain new information in order to be relevant. Their behavior may not affect you but I can guarantee that it affects other people, such as myself. I believe doing what's the morally right thing to do is more important than earning a few extra bucks.
    - yorwba 8y ago