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I think it's very easy to be dismissive of counseling. Of course it isn't an exact science, maybe not even a science at all. I like to think of it this way.

I think it's very easy to be dismissive of counseling. Of course it isn't an exact science, maybe not even a science at all. I like to think of it this way. Think of your mind like an iterative non-linear system with thousands upon thousands of inputs. It operates completely by cause and effect, but because it's non-linear, that doesn't mean it's easy to figure out how it got stuck in a loop. >In the mathematical field of dynamical systems, an attractor is a set of numerical values toward which a system tends to evolve, for a wide variety of starting conditions of the system. System values that get close enough to the attractor values remain close even if slightly disturbed.[1] Sometimes when our mind gets stuck, the efforts on our part to get out aren't enough to get us unstuck. Psychologists or psychiatrists are people who are familiar with some of these mental paths and how it can lead people to become stuck. They are also familiar with some of the paths that lead to an exit from those undesirable states. They are attempting to deal with such a complex system, that I don't think it's fair to hold them to the same standard as the so called 'hard sciences.' For another perspective on the problem of 'getting stuck', from a Buddhist point of view (which is also based on cause and effect) see [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attractor [2] https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/KarmaOfQuestions/Section0009.html https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/KarmaOfQuestions/Section00...

viivaux 8y ago
Your entire argument works just as well for shamans as psychiatry; except the drugs shamans use have far fewer and more benign side-effects, with thousands of years of history instead of 20-40. Many of the psychiatrists I have encountered "believe" in their medications, and when questioned as to how (and how well) the drugs they were informed about work have no real substantive argument for all their years of med school. But fuck, do they get paid better. You won't see many shamans on a Pfizer sponsored golf trip in Hawaii.
- gerbilly 8y ago
  Yes, I could have been clearer that I was talking about 'talk therapy' not medication. Does the argument work as well for shamans? Maybe,except that I was kind of implying a materialist point of view behind psychology, which might not apply to shamans. But who says that shamans might not 'cure you' of your depression just as well?
- everdrive 8y ago
  I think this is a very valid counterpoint, but I'd just like to point out that Shamans must have actually helped people throughout history as well. Now, I'd argue it might have been some combination of talk therapy, social expectation, and whatever else.

viivaux 8y ago

Your entire argument works just as well for shamans as psychiatry; except the drugs shamans use have far fewer and more benign side-effects, with thousands of years of history instead of 20-40. Many of the psychiatrists I have encountered "believe" in their medications, and when questioned as to how (and how well) the drugs they were informed about work have no real substantive argument for all their years of med school. But fuck, do they get paid better. You won't see many shamans on a Pfizer sponsored golf trip in Hawaii.

gerbilly 8y ago
Yes, I could have been clearer that I was talking about 'talk therapy' not medication. Does the argument work as well for shamans? Maybe,except that I was kind of implying a materialist point of view behind psychology, which might not apply to shamans. But who says that shamans might not 'cure you' of your depression just as well?
everdrive 8y ago
I think this is a very valid counterpoint, but I'd just like to point out that Shamans must have actually helped people throughout history as well. Now, I'd argue it might have been some combination of talk therapy, social expectation, and whatever else.