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Not to feed the troll, but I would put Boeing a hell of a lot higher on that list than Tesla. I drive with AutoPilot every day. One thing is damn sure, you wat

by zaroth 8y ago

Not to feed the troll, but I would put Boeing a hell of a lot higher on that list than Tesla. I drive with AutoPilot every day. One thing is damn sure, you watch it vigilantly, and you can always, always take control by just turning wheel or tapping the brakes. Tesla tells me every single time I engage AutoPilot to keep my hands on the wheel and be ready to take control. A special place in hell for automation that you don’t even know exists, that was concealed from you for a profit motive, flying your plane into the ground.

05 8y ago
In a worst case scenario Tesla can veer into a concrete lane divider and kill you in under a second. I don't think Boeing comes anywhere close to that timescale. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a person monitoring the vehicle to be able to react in time. Calling an L2 assist 'Autopilot' is just .. evil. Just like peddling shitty statistics that 'shows' AP is safer than manual driving (it really isn't).
ineedasername 8y ago
Honest question, because I've never used an autopilot feature and have virtually no commute: if you have to watch it so vigilantly, what is the appeal or practical value?
- zaroth 8y ago
  It changes the way I drive. I don't focus on making minor adjustments to keep the vehicle centered in the lane. I don't need to predominantly look far down the lane to try to keep my peripheral vision maximized, and only take cursory glances around, like I would if I was actively steering. I don't worry about drifting out of the lane if I'm looking at something in the next lane over or in the rear-view for a moment. I can scan more of my immediate surroundings and notice potential hazards which are not just directly in front of me much more easily. I also find it's a lot less tiring to have the car dealing with the micro-adjustments in steering while I do the higher level planning. I've said it before in other comments, but I honestly believe 20 years from now we might not have "sleep in your car while it takes you from point A to B" but we will look back and wonder how we managed to drive cars while constantly have to manually and meticulously center them in our lanes. In fact I personally think it's quite analogous to how airplane autopilot actually functions (even if the general public perception of airplane autopilot does not match reality). It requires a pilot to constantly be monitoring the situation, and in fact it frees the pilot to be able to do necessary planning tasks, but at no point does the autopilot itself carry the actual responsibility of operating the vehicle.
  - unityByFreedom 8y ago
    You are risking your life and the lives of others in return for convenience. > I don't focus on making minor adjustments to keep the vehicle centered in the lane. Why is this a benefit? In this video [1] you only have two seconds to make a correction. > I don't worry about drifting out of the lane That is concerning given what we know about AP's behavior. The behavior demonstrated here was new as of March 2018, later disappeared, and then reappeared again in an AP update in 2019 [2]. This issue was also demonstrated to appear at the location of a Model X crash that resulted in a fatality [3]. Then there are the two left-turning white tractor-trailer deaths in Florida, seemingly identical conditions on divided roads, spaced 3 years apart [4] [5]. You could say, "well I don't have conditions like those where I commute", but then, you don't know where the next screw-up will be. EDIT: Here is another case, just happened two days ago [7], a Model X on autopilot unexpectedly veered right at highway speed, crashing into a truck. Also note, there is no proof that AP is safer. NHTSA's "40% safer" claim was debunked when they were forced to release data as a result of a lawsuit [6]. > In fact I personally think it's quite analogous to how airplane autopilot actually functions Airplane pilots have minutes to react to autopilot malfunctions. In a car you may have only 1 or 2 seconds. [1] https://v.redd.it/n6iukmpsw3q01 https://v.redd.it/n6iukmpsw3q01 [2] https://v.redd.it/p3xhls52w6n21 https://v.redd.it/p3xhls52w6n21 [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_model_s_failing_in_autopilot_where_the_model_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_mode... [4] https://electrek.co/2016/07/01/understanding-fatal-tesla-accident-autopilot-nhtsa-probe/ https://electrek.co/2016/07/01/understanding-fatal-tesla-acc... [5] https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trailer-autopilot/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trai... [6] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26455/nhtsas-flawed-autopilot-safety-study-unmasked https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26455/nhtsas-flawed-autopilot-... [7] https://i.imgur.com/UZS1m6j.png https://i.imgur.com/UZS1m6j.png
  - ineedasername 8y ago
    Very interesting, thank you. I think the comparison to airplane autopilot is apt. At that industry did go through a period of readjustment, where autopilot contributed to a lack of attention/readiness. Those systems have been tweaked over the years to mitigate that risk. Cars will undoubtedly have to go through the same growth. Makes me wonder if special training should be required for drivers of such cars before we get to L3-L4 self driving capabilities. You sound responsible in your use though.

by zaroth 8y ago

05 8y ago

In a worst case scenario Tesla can veer into a concrete lane divider and kill you in under a second. I don't think Boeing comes anywhere close to that timescale. I don't think it's reasonable to expect a person monitoring the vehicle to be able to react in time. Calling an L2 assist 'Autopilot' is just .. evil. Just like peddling shitty statistics that 'shows' AP is safer than manual driving (it really isn't).

ineedasername 8y ago

Honest question, because I've never used an autopilot feature and have virtually no commute: if you have to watch it so vigilantly, what is the appeal or practical value?

zaroth 8y ago
It changes the way I drive. I don't focus on making minor adjustments to keep the vehicle centered in the lane. I don't need to predominantly look far down the lane to try to keep my peripheral vision maximized, and only take cursory glances around, like I would if I was actively steering. I don't worry about drifting out of the lane if I'm looking at something in the next lane over or in the rear-view for a moment. I can scan more of my immediate surroundings and notice potential hazards which are not just directly in front of me much more easily. I also find it's a lot less tiring to have the car dealing with the micro-adjustments in steering while I do the higher level planning. I've said it before in other comments, but I honestly believe 20 years from now we might not have "sleep in your car while it takes you from point A to B" but we will look back and wonder how we managed to drive cars while constantly have to manually and meticulously center them in our lanes. In fact I personally think it's quite analogous to how airplane autopilot actually functions (even if the general public perception of airplane autopilot does not match reality). It requires a pilot to constantly be monitoring the situation, and in fact it frees the pilot to be able to do necessary planning tasks, but at no point does the autopilot itself carry the actual responsibility of operating the vehicle.
- unityByFreedom 8y ago
  You are risking your life and the lives of others in return for convenience. > I don't focus on making minor adjustments to keep the vehicle centered in the lane. Why is this a benefit? In this video [1] you only have two seconds to make a correction. > I don't worry about drifting out of the lane That is concerning given what we know about AP's behavior. The behavior demonstrated here was new as of March 2018, later disappeared, and then reappeared again in an AP update in 2019 [2]. This issue was also demonstrated to appear at the location of a Model X crash that resulted in a fatality [3]. Then there are the two left-turning white tractor-trailer deaths in Florida, seemingly identical conditions on divided roads, spaced 3 years apart [4] [5]. You could say, "well I don't have conditions like those where I commute", but then, you don't know where the next screw-up will be. EDIT: Here is another case, just happened two days ago [7], a Model X on autopilot unexpectedly veered right at highway speed, crashing into a truck. Also note, there is no proof that AP is safer. NHTSA's "40% safer" claim was debunked when they were forced to release data as a result of a lawsuit [6]. > In fact I personally think it's quite analogous to how airplane autopilot actually functions Airplane pilots have minutes to react to autopilot malfunctions. In a car you may have only 1 or 2 seconds. [1] https://v.redd.it/n6iukmpsw3q01 https://v.redd.it/n6iukmpsw3q01 [2] https://v.redd.it/p3xhls52w6n21 https://v.redd.it/p3xhls52w6n21 [3] https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_model_s_failing_in_autopilot_where_the_model_x/ https://www.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/899i1w/my_mode... [4] https://electrek.co/2016/07/01/understanding-fatal-tesla-accident-autopilot-nhtsa-probe/ https://electrek.co/2016/07/01/understanding-fatal-tesla-acc... [5] https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trailer-autopilot/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-driver-crash-truck-trai... [6] https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26455/nhtsas-flawed-autopilot-safety-study-unmasked https://www.thedrive.com/tech/26455/nhtsas-flawed-autopilot-... [7] https://i.imgur.com/UZS1m6j.png https://i.imgur.com/UZS1m6j.png
- ineedasername 8y ago
  Very interesting, thank you. I think the comparison to airplane autopilot is apt. At that industry did go through a period of readjustment, where autopilot contributed to a lack of attention/readiness. Those systems have been tweaked over the years to mitigate that risk. Cars will undoubtedly have to go through the same growth. Makes me wonder if special training should be required for drivers of such cars before we get to L3-L4 self driving capabilities. You sound responsible in your use though.