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> Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. > O

> Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. > Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children Bringing up pedophelia in the context of LGBT+ people has a long history of being used to other and shame LGBT+ people. I'd encourage you to find a different example (or just stay on topic -- conversion therapy for LGBT+ people.)

umvi 8y ago
Let me break it down: An adult has a sexual attraction that they didn't choose to have and that they don't want to have. Are they stuck for life? Or is it possible some form of therapy could help?
- dimensi0nal 8y ago
  1. Yes. 2. No.
zzzcpan 8y ago
> LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. How exactly? And what about other people who seek "conversion therapy"? An app is not a military, where you can literally sign away basic rights to not be hurt and abused.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  > How exactly [can LGBT+ people be hurt by conversion therapy]? Great question. I'm going to assume this is being asked in good faith. If someone feels attraction to same sex people, and they are told by important people in their lives that this is shameful, they can internalize that shame. This can lead to thoughts like, "I feel bad about who I am", "I am disgusted by who I am", "Why can't I escape these feelings about who I am?!", "No one will ever love me if I am like this.", "I have to stop these feelings or I'll be evicted from my community.", etc. Constant internal monologues like this can create stress, anxiety, and depression. Adding a religious element can increase these feelings. If someone is spending a significant amount of time wondering, "Am I going to be eternally punished if I can't shake these feelings?" I can imagine that could cause serious, significant, and lasting anxiety. Conversion therapy, in my understanding, reinforces these feelings. Telling someone, "yes, it is shameful to feel this way. Yes, you are at risk of eternal damnation if you act on these feelings." It's important to differentiate between Conversion Therapy and Therapy. Shame, anxiety, depression, and stress like this lead to all sorts of negative health outcomes -- depressed immune systems, negative social outcomes, self-harm, suicide, etc. It's important to understand that I'm asserting just that this can cause harm. Not that it will always cause harm. I'm specifically pushing back on the idea that if Conversion Therapy doesn't involve physical abuse, it therefore cannot cause harm.
  - umvi 8y ago
    This is 2 different problems you've coupled. The first problem is people shaming people with conditions they can't control. The second, unrelated, problem is how to act on the effects of the condition. For example: Someone feels a strong desire to cut off their own limb[1]. They are told by important people in their lives that is shameful, they can internalize that shame. Conversion therapy reinforces these feelings, etc. leading to increased anxiety, suicide, etc. This is how I perceive you have framed the issue. If you decouple the two problems you can solve them one at a time. Firstly, you need to solve the problem of people emotionally abusing those with conditions they can't control. Secondly you need to solve the problem of how to deal with the effects of the condition. Now the narrative goes like this: Someone feels a strong desire to cut off their own limb[1]. They are told by important people in their lives that things like this happen, and not to feel bad for something beyond their control, and that they are there to support them. The person with BIID now has a choice - they can act on their condition and get the limb amputated, or they can attempt therapy to try to mitigate the effects of the condition. This same logic can and should be applied to any mental condition from pedophilia to BIID to gender dysphoria. Therapy should be available to adults for any unwanted mental condition, even LGBT-related ones. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621
    - fzeroracer 8y ago
      No one here is saying LGBT individuals shouldn't have access to therapy. After all, said individuals can be uncomfortable with their sexuality or otherwise feel like they have to hide who they are. Conversion Therapy however, is not actually therapy by any stretch of the word. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing, a way of harassing, harming or attacking vulnerable individuals. This is why conversion therapy increases the rate of suicide in individuals and why so many conversion therapy clinics use abhorrent means of attempting to treat people. In this case the argument is correctly framed.
      - zzzcpan 8y ago
        Everyone has to hide who they are to some extent. This is just the world we live in, societies are awful to people. Again, the harassing, harming and attacking is done by other people, not by the "Conversion Therapy".
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
> Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. Yeah, but so can people who smoke, drink, or eat ice cream. At what point is it our job to tell people they can't choose to do things that are bad for them?
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  I was specifically pushing back on the idea that LGBT+ cannot be hurt by voluntary conversion therapy. I made no comment about the broader conversation, so I'm not sure how your comment is relevant.

umvi 8y ago

Let me break it down: An adult has a sexual attraction that they didn't choose to have and that they don't want to have. Are they stuck for life? Or is it possible some form of therapy could help?

dimensi0nal 8y ago
1. Yes. 2. No.

zzzcpan 8y ago

> LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. How exactly? And what about other people who seek "conversion therapy"? An app is not a military, where you can literally sign away basic rights to not be hurt and abused.

Pfhreak 8y ago
> How exactly [can LGBT+ people be hurt by conversion therapy]? Great question. I'm going to assume this is being asked in good faith. If someone feels attraction to same sex people, and they are told by important people in their lives that this is shameful, they can internalize that shame. This can lead to thoughts like, "I feel bad about who I am", "I am disgusted by who I am", "Why can't I escape these feelings about who I am?!", "No one will ever love me if I am like this.", "I have to stop these feelings or I'll be evicted from my community.", etc. Constant internal monologues like this can create stress, anxiety, and depression. Adding a religious element can increase these feelings. If someone is spending a significant amount of time wondering, "Am I going to be eternally punished if I can't shake these feelings?" I can imagine that could cause serious, significant, and lasting anxiety. Conversion therapy, in my understanding, reinforces these feelings. Telling someone, "yes, it is shameful to feel this way. Yes, you are at risk of eternal damnation if you act on these feelings." It's important to differentiate between Conversion Therapy and Therapy. Shame, anxiety, depression, and stress like this lead to all sorts of negative health outcomes -- depressed immune systems, negative social outcomes, self-harm, suicide, etc. It's important to understand that I'm asserting just that this can cause harm. Not that it will always cause harm. I'm specifically pushing back on the idea that if Conversion Therapy doesn't involve physical abuse, it therefore cannot cause harm.
- umvi 8y ago
  This is 2 different problems you've coupled. The first problem is people shaming people with conditions they can't control. The second, unrelated, problem is how to act on the effects of the condition. For example: Someone feels a strong desire to cut off their own limb[1]. They are told by important people in their lives that is shameful, they can internalize that shame. Conversion therapy reinforces these feelings, etc. leading to increased anxiety, suicide, etc. This is how I perceive you have framed the issue. If you decouple the two problems you can solve them one at a time. Firstly, you need to solve the problem of people emotionally abusing those with conditions they can't control. Secondly you need to solve the problem of how to deal with the effects of the condition. Now the narrative goes like this: Someone feels a strong desire to cut off their own limb[1]. They are told by important people in their lives that things like this happen, and not to feel bad for something beyond their control, and that they are there to support them. The person with BIID now has a choice - they can act on their condition and get the limb amputated, or they can attempt therapy to try to mitigate the effects of the condition. This same logic can and should be applied to any mental condition from pedophilia to BIID to gender dysphoria. Therapy should be available to adults for any unwanted mental condition, even LGBT-related ones. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19132621
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    No one here is saying LGBT individuals shouldn't have access to therapy. After all, said individuals can be uncomfortable with their sexuality or otherwise feel like they have to hide who they are. Conversion Therapy however, is not actually therapy by any stretch of the word. It's a wolf in sheep's clothing, a way of harassing, harming or attacking vulnerable individuals. This is why conversion therapy increases the rate of suicide in individuals and why so many conversion therapy clinics use abhorrent means of attempting to treat people. In this case the argument is correctly framed.
    - zzzcpan 8y ago
      Everyone has to hide who they are to some extent. This is just the world we live in, societies are awful to people. Again, the harassing, harming and attacking is done by other people, not by the "Conversion Therapy".

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

> Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. Yeah, but so can people who smoke, drink, or eat ice cream. At what point is it our job to tell people they can't choose to do things that are bad for them?

Pfhreak 8y ago
I was specifically pushing back on the idea that LGBT+ cannot be hurt by voluntary conversion therapy. I made no comment about the broader conversation, so I'm not sure how your comment is relevant.