4 ms·

Psychiatry today strikes me as being in a similar place as Infectious Disease before germ theory. We can describe symptoms, we can group them together, and we c

by neaden 8y ago

Psychiatry today strikes me as being in a similar place as Infectious Disease before germ theory. We can describe symptoms, we can group them together, and we can come up with cures that sometimes work but without knowing if we are talking about a virus or a bacteria we can't really understand what's going on.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
forkandwait 8y ago
Or like chemistry during the alchemy era.
trevyn 8y ago
IMO, we already have the mental-disease equivalent of germ theory, it’s just far more complex and not yet well-understood by enough people to have broad social impact. “The germ theory was proposed by Girolamo Fracastoro in 1546, and expanded upon by Marcus von Plenciz in 1762. Such views were held in disdain, however, and Galen's miasma theory remained dominant among scientists and doctors.” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease
- fastball 8y ago
  What would you say the germ theory of mental disease is?
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    There isn't one - which is the point. It isn't even scientifically accurate to believe that mental illness is caused exclusively by brain malfunctions. Other bodily systems, especially the gut, also seem involved - never mind the mysterious role of genetics, and the slightly less mysterious but hard to pin down influence of environmental and social stresses.
    - tremon 8y ago
      > There isn't one - which is the point. The GP was asking because of this statement: IMO, we already have the mental-disease equivalent of germ theory
- thaumasiotes 8y ago
  https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/lost-and-found/ https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/lost-and-found/ > Marcus Terentius Varro was called the most learned of the Romans. But what did he know, and how did he know it? I ask because of this quote, from Rerum rusticarum libri III (Agricultural Topics in Three Books): > Precautions must also be taken in the neighbourhood of swamps, both for the reasons given, and because there are bred certain minute creatures which cannot be seen by the eyes, which float in the air and enter the body through the mouth and nose and there cause serious diseases. > I get the distinct impression that someone (probably someone other than Varro) came up with an approximation of germ theory 1500 years before Girolamo Fracastoro. But his work was lost.
  - arkades 8y ago
    The ancient Greeks were long ago discussing the possible existence of “animalcules.” Fracastaro gets credit because he wasn’t just philosophizing, he described actual disease in great detail with supporting cases (I hesitate to say “data,” that wasn’t really a thing yet) to argue for its mechanism. It’s the difference between a stoner strumming his guitar, “dude, what if we’re all, like, strings?” and string theory.
    - thaumasiotes 8y ago
      I think the advice "don't live near a swamp, because the tiny invisible creatures in there will make you sick, and if you do have a farm next to a swamp, sell it" is a little more detailed than "dude, what if we're all, like, strings?" Describing disease in great detail is nothing the Romans didn't also do, nor does it have anything to do with the germ theory of disease.
      - arkades 8y ago
        That advice applies equally well to miasma (and, in fact, it’s ability to accurately relate to geography of disease is part of why it was taken seriously.) Which is why F. gets credit for actually making detailed observations and hypotheses that we’re borne out.
saltcured 8y ago
On the bright side, we did manage to improve things using the scientific method. Germ theory came from epidemiological evidence in parallel with the discovery of microrganisms. We didn't have to already know how it all works in order to figure out ways to improve outcomes. I think that what is disturbing to a lot of computing folk is that psychiatry sounds a bit ill-posed. An imposition of magical thinking onto what we assume are complex, chaotic systems. It just doesn't feel right that something so complex can be adjusted with such gross, brute-force methods. Imagine debugging a computer and saying, "I think your RAM hasn't enough ones in it. I am prescribing this selective ones-uptake inhibitor to restore the balance." On the other hand, we do have plenty of drugs that are a bit closer to saying, "This packet flow seems to be overwhelming the cluster. We can prescribe this traffic filter to interrupt that flow, allowing other functions to return to normal."
- souterrain 8y ago
  > Imagine debugging a computer and saying, "I think your RAM hasn't enough ones in it. I am prescribing this selective ones-uptake inhibitor to restore the balance." Yet we use encoding techniques to ensure that there precisely are a sufficient number of ones, such that clock can be recovered. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited
arkades 8y ago
ITT: sweeping criticisms of psychiatry based on caricatures drawn from pop-sci accounts of psychiatry. I am deeply critical of quite a few facets of modern psychiatry, but this thread seems to mistake the stuff that’s slung around in Guardian and Atlantic articles as having any relationship to reality.
- dsego 8y ago
  Speaking from personal experience. I have a sibling with psychosis, on meds, hospitalized every so often. Also, one of my parents has been treated for ptsd and depression for more than 20 years. The shrinks are clueless to put it mildly. What they do is try out different dosages and combinations of meds to see what helps until it doesn't and then they give up. Their practice is akin to witchcraft and mixing potions in the medieval times. My honest opinion is that psychiatry is at best a pseudo-science and needs to be abolished as a field of medicine.
DanBC 8y ago
Where did you do your medical training?

by neaden 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

forkandwait 8y ago

Or like chemistry during the alchemy era.

trevyn 8y ago

IMO, we already have the mental-disease equivalent of germ theory, it’s just far more complex and not yet well-understood by enough people to have broad social impact. “The germ theory was proposed by Girolamo Fracastoro in 1546, and expanded upon by Marcus von Plenciz in 1762. Such views were held in disdain, however, and Galen's miasma theory remained dominant among scientists and doctors.” - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease

fastball 8y ago
What would you say the germ theory of mental disease is?
- TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
  There isn't one - which is the point. It isn't even scientifically accurate to believe that mental illness is caused exclusively by brain malfunctions. Other bodily systems, especially the gut, also seem involved - never mind the mysterious role of genetics, and the slightly less mysterious but hard to pin down influence of environmental and social stresses.
  - tremon 8y ago
    > There isn't one - which is the point. The GP was asking because of this statement: IMO, we already have the mental-disease equivalent of germ theory
thaumasiotes 8y ago
https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/lost-and-found/ https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/lost-and-found/ > Marcus Terentius Varro was called the most learned of the Romans. But what did he know, and how did he know it? I ask because of this quote, from Rerum rusticarum libri III (Agricultural Topics in Three Books): > Precautions must also be taken in the neighbourhood of swamps, both for the reasons given, and because there are bred certain minute creatures which cannot be seen by the eyes, which float in the air and enter the body through the mouth and nose and there cause serious diseases. > I get the distinct impression that someone (probably someone other than Varro) came up with an approximation of germ theory 1500 years before Girolamo Fracastoro. But his work was lost.
- arkades 8y ago
  The ancient Greeks were long ago discussing the possible existence of “animalcules.” Fracastaro gets credit because he wasn’t just philosophizing, he described actual disease in great detail with supporting cases (I hesitate to say “data,” that wasn’t really a thing yet) to argue for its mechanism. It’s the difference between a stoner strumming his guitar, “dude, what if we’re all, like, strings?” and string theory.
  - thaumasiotes 8y ago
    I think the advice "don't live near a swamp, because the tiny invisible creatures in there will make you sick, and if you do have a farm next to a swamp, sell it" is a little more detailed than "dude, what if we're all, like, strings?" Describing disease in great detail is nothing the Romans didn't also do, nor does it have anything to do with the germ theory of disease.
    - arkades 8y ago
      That advice applies equally well to miasma (and, in fact, it’s ability to accurately relate to geography of disease is part of why it was taken seriously.) Which is why F. gets credit for actually making detailed observations and hypotheses that we’re borne out.

saltcured 8y ago

On the bright side, we did manage to improve things using the scientific method. Germ theory came from epidemiological evidence in parallel with the discovery of microrganisms. We didn't have to already know how it all works in order to figure out ways to improve outcomes. I think that what is disturbing to a lot of computing folk is that psychiatry sounds a bit ill-posed. An imposition of magical thinking onto what we assume are complex, chaotic systems. It just doesn't feel right that something so complex can be adjusted with such gross, brute-force methods. Imagine debugging a computer and saying, "I think your RAM hasn't enough ones in it. I am prescribing this selective ones-uptake inhibitor to restore the balance." On the other hand, we do have plenty of drugs that are a bit closer to saying, "This packet flow seems to be overwhelming the cluster. We can prescribe this traffic filter to interrupt that flow, allowing other functions to return to normal."

souterrain 8y ago
> Imagine debugging a computer and saying, "I think your RAM hasn't enough ones in it. I am prescribing this selective ones-uptake inhibitor to restore the balance." Yet we use encoding techniques to ensure that there precisely are a sufficient number of ones, such that clock can be recovered. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Run-length_limited

arkades 8y ago

ITT: sweeping criticisms of psychiatry based on caricatures drawn from pop-sci accounts of psychiatry. I am deeply critical of quite a few facets of modern psychiatry, but this thread seems to mistake the stuff that’s slung around in Guardian and Atlantic articles as having any relationship to reality.

dsego 8y ago
Speaking from personal experience. I have a sibling with psychosis, on meds, hospitalized every so often. Also, one of my parents has been treated for ptsd and depression for more than 20 years. The shrinks are clueless to put it mildly. What they do is try out different dosages and combinations of meds to see what helps until it doesn't and then they give up. Their practice is akin to witchcraft and mixing potions in the medieval times. My honest opinion is that psychiatry is at best a pseudo-science and needs to be abolished as a field of medicine.

DanBC 8y ago

Where did you do your medical training?