6 ms·

Does being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view? I am pretty openminded myself and don't care of someone's orientation but everyon

Does being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view? I am pretty openminded myself and don't care of someone's orientation but everyone should have the right to do whatever the f they want as long as it's not hurting anybody. Don't tell me it's hurting their feelings!

k7mqqn 8y ago
Being liberal doesn't mean you're open minded, as we're seeing lately.
hello_friendos 8y ago
Conversion therapy does hurt people.
- umvi 8y ago
  Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion. Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children. It's one thing if it's a parent forcing their child to undergo conversion therapy. But I don't see anything wrong with an adult who has an unwanted sexual attraction trying conversion therapy.
  - lol768 8y ago
    >Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children I'm not sure this is a helpful comparison to draw.
    - jpkiser 8y ago
      Why not? Being straight takes on the form of having a sexual desire to the opportunity sex. Being gay takes on the form of have sexual desires for the same sex. Why should pedophilia, or zoophilia, or any other the other niche sexual attractions be treated differently?
  - duxup 8y ago
    >Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children. What does that have to do with conversion therapy? Are you connecting homosexuality to pedophilia?
    - dunkmaster 8y ago
      They are both innate sexual preferences. However I disagree with the original statement because there is indeed no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction.
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    > Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. > Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children Bringing up pedophelia in the context of LGBT+ people has a long history of being used to other and shame LGBT+ people. I'd encourage you to find a different example (or just stay on topic -- conversion therapy for LGBT+ people.)
    - umvi 8y ago
      Let me break it down: An adult has a sexual attraction that they didn't choose to have and that they don't want to have. Are they stuck for life? Or is it possible some form of therapy could help?
      - dimensi0nal 8y ago
        1. Yes. 2. No.
    - zzzcpan 8y ago
      > LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. How exactly? And what about other people who seek "conversion therapy"? An app is not a military, where you can literally sign away basic rights to not be hurt and abused.
      - Pfhreak 8y ago
        > How exactly [can LGBT+ people be hurt by conversion therapy]? Great question. I'm going to assume this is being asked in good faith. If someone feels attraction to same sex people, and they are told by important people in their lives that this is shameful, they can internalize that shame. This can lead to thoughts like, "I feel bad about who I am", "I am disgusted by who I am", "Why can't I escape these feelings about who I am?!", "No one will ever love me if I am like this.", "I have to stop these feelings or I'll be evicted from my community.", etc. Constant internal monologues like this can create stress, anxiety, and depression. Adding a religious element can increase these feelings. If someone is spending a significant amount of time wondering, "Am I going to be eternally punished if I can't shake these feelings?" I can imagine that could cause serious, significant, and lasting anxiety. Conversion therapy, in my understanding, reinforces these feelings. Telling someone, "yes, it is shameful to feel this way. Yes, you are at risk of eternal damnation if you act on these feelings." It's important to differentiate between Conversion Therapy and Therapy. Shame, anxiety, depression, and stress like this lead to all sorts of negative health outcomes -- depressed immune systems, negative social outcomes, self-harm, suicide, etc. It's important to understand that I'm asserting just that this can cause harm. Not that it will always cause harm. I'm specifically pushing back on the idea that if Conversion Therapy doesn't involve physical abuse, it therefore cannot cause harm.
  - fetus8 8y ago
    Pedophilia != LGBT identities If someone is truly trying to rid themselves of an attraction to children, they should probably be in therapy.
    - dunkmaster 8y ago
      Yes, they should be in therapy for wanting to rid themselves of their attraction. Any sane pedophile would know that's not possible.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
      It is hard to see how your logic would not also apply to people who wish to rid themselves of homosexual attractions, or even heterosexual ones for that matter. But the data is pretty clear that "conversion therapy" doesn't work and causes harm. Applying it to pedophiles won't change that.
- 0wnt_U_B 8y ago
  Not if the person wants to be converted (been there done that). So you burning books (or software) only hurts thousands of people like me, and makes you intolerant of diversity.
- lizardskull 8y ago
  The knob hill glory holes hurt people
qntty 8y ago
Seems like a matter of consistency more than anything. Google has already decided to make an app store that excludes things like overt racism. Seems like if you're going to exclude racism you should also exclude homophobia. Whether we should tolerate both these people is an interesting question, but not the issue in this case.
- kieckerjan 8y ago
  Hmm, not sure if that logic flies. There are many people who hold the view that race (whatever that may be) is innate while homosexuality is not. They would argue that the latter can be “cured” while the former cannot. From that perspective the distinction makes sense. (I do not subscribe to that view at all, btw.)
  - qntty 8y ago
    Yes, these people are wrong. We must be able to make judgements of fact to make good decisions about these things.
    - bargl 8y ago
      As soon as you say wrong, you start sounding like the people running these churches. I am ok with people being wrong, that's why we have freedoms. It's society's job to pressure churches and other organizations to turn away from these dangerous beliefs. Not the governments. That's part of why I fight for freedoms like this. Wrong is subjective, the objective truth of wrong comes from society. If you allow governments to determine what is "wrong" we would have never gotten to the point that we are having these conversations. Some of our beliefs will be wrong to a future generation, by allowing them the freedom to change them through societal pressure we allow society to grow without creating the friction of civil unrest to grow from that vector.
      - qntty 8y ago
        Who's talking about the government? This is about Google. I'm talking about being factually wrong, not morally wrong.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
p1necone 8y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
ben_jones 8y ago
Declaring yourself as 'Liberal' is a way to identify yourself as someone who believes in a series of popularized beliefs held by the American Left (in this context I think it is a US-centric topic). In Silicon Valley these beliefs are extremely popular thus there is a large benefit for a company or individual to project themselves as a strong member of the group. What we are seeing is a rational judgement by Google which goes against the mainstay belief of American Liberals that anything but encouragement of LGBT is evil and is a harbinger back to recent US history where LGBT individuals were repressed and actively persecuted. I'm strongly against conversion therapy but if the facts I'm seeing are true I believe Google made the right decision because this app does not repress or actively persecute LGBT individuals. Also for what it's worth, though it shouldn't matter, I am a liberal. Offtopic: HN users use the downvote button as a way of hiding content they disagree with. It should instead be used to hide content that does NOT add to the discussion (or is hateful, or a few other valid reasons).
a1369209993 8y ago
> Does being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view? Empirically, yes, it does. It's true that it shouldn't, as you seem to be implying, but people seem to like thinking their enemies are irredeemably evil monsters, and liberalism isn't magically immune to that.
hinkley 8y ago
Intolerance of intolerance seems to go hand-in-glove with tolerance. Bullies need a victim, but they also need most other people to look the other way. These apps are mostly used on teenagers, with pressure from their parents and mentors. There's a fine line between bad parenting and bullying your kids, and there are certainly arguments about where that line is. All I know is my kid has two friends who fantasize about coming to live at our house (or getting emancipated) because their parents are homophobes. Some people know what kind of adult they're going to be, others are surprised by it, but if you're into puberty and think you probably aren't cisgendered, then I'm confident that you aren't destined to be a poster child for heteronormativity. At any rate, part of becoming an independent adult is learning to rely on yourself, on your instincts, on your own sense of right and wrong. If your parents spend your entire teen years telling you that you can't trust yourself, that's pretty fucked up.

k7mqqn 8y ago

Being liberal doesn't mean you're open minded, as we're seeing lately.

hello_friendos 8y ago

Conversion therapy does hurt people.

umvi 8y ago
Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion. Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children. It's one thing if it's a parent forcing their child to undergo conversion therapy. But I don't see anything wrong with an adult who has an unwanted sexual attraction trying conversion therapy.
- lol768 8y ago
  >Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children I'm not sure this is a helpful comparison to draw.
  - jpkiser 8y ago
    Why not? Being straight takes on the form of having a sexual desire to the opportunity sex. Being gay takes on the form of have sexual desires for the same sex. Why should pedophilia, or zoophilia, or any other the other niche sexual attractions be treated differently?
- duxup 8y ago
  >Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children. What does that have to do with conversion therapy? Are you connecting homosexuality to pedophilia?
  - dunkmaster 8y ago
    They are both innate sexual preferences. However I disagree with the original statement because there is indeed no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  > Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. > Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children Bringing up pedophelia in the context of LGBT+ people has a long history of being used to other and shame LGBT+ people. I'd encourage you to find a different example (or just stay on topic -- conversion therapy for LGBT+ people.)
  - umvi 8y ago
    Let me break it down: An adult has a sexual attraction that they didn't choose to have and that they don't want to have. Are they stuck for life? Or is it possible some form of therapy could help?
    - dimensi0nal 8y ago
      1. Yes. 2. No.
  - zzzcpan 8y ago
    > LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. How exactly? And what about other people who seek "conversion therapy"? An app is not a military, where you can literally sign away basic rights to not be hurt and abused.
    - Pfhreak 8y ago
      > How exactly [can LGBT+ people be hurt by conversion therapy]? Great question. I'm going to assume this is being asked in good faith. If someone feels attraction to same sex people, and they are told by important people in their lives that this is shameful, they can internalize that shame. This can lead to thoughts like, "I feel bad about who I am", "I am disgusted by who I am", "Why can't I escape these feelings about who I am?!", "No one will ever love me if I am like this.", "I have to stop these feelings or I'll be evicted from my community.", etc. Constant internal monologues like this can create stress, anxiety, and depression. Adding a religious element can increase these feelings. If someone is spending a significant amount of time wondering, "Am I going to be eternally punished if I can't shake these feelings?" I can imagine that could cause serious, significant, and lasting anxiety. Conversion therapy, in my understanding, reinforces these feelings. Telling someone, "yes, it is shameful to feel this way. Yes, you are at risk of eternal damnation if you act on these feelings." It's important to differentiate between Conversion Therapy and Therapy. Shame, anxiety, depression, and stress like this lead to all sorts of negative health outcomes -- depressed immune systems, negative social outcomes, self-harm, suicide, etc. It's important to understand that I'm asserting just that this can cause harm. Not that it will always cause harm. I'm specifically pushing back on the idea that if Conversion Therapy doesn't involve physical abuse, it therefore cannot cause harm.
- fetus8 8y ago
  Pedophilia != LGBT identities If someone is truly trying to rid themselves of an attraction to children, they should probably be in therapy.
  - dunkmaster 8y ago
    Yes, they should be in therapy for wanting to rid themselves of their attraction. Any sane pedophile would know that's not possible.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    It is hard to see how your logic would not also apply to people who wish to rid themselves of homosexual attractions, or even heterosexual ones for that matter. But the data is pretty clear that "conversion therapy" doesn't work and causes harm. Applying it to pedophiles won't change that.
0wnt_U_B 8y ago
Not if the person wants to be converted (been there done that). So you burning books (or software) only hurts thousands of people like me, and makes you intolerant of diversity.
lizardskull 8y ago
The knob hill glory holes hurt people

qntty 8y ago

Seems like a matter of consistency more than anything. Google has already decided to make an app store that excludes things like overt racism. Seems like if you're going to exclude racism you should also exclude homophobia. Whether we should tolerate both these people is an interesting question, but not the issue in this case.

kieckerjan 8y ago
Hmm, not sure if that logic flies. There are many people who hold the view that race (whatever that may be) is innate while homosexuality is not. They would argue that the latter can be “cured” while the former cannot. From that perspective the distinction makes sense. (I do not subscribe to that view at all, btw.)
- qntty 8y ago
  Yes, these people are wrong. We must be able to make judgements of fact to make good decisions about these things.
  - bargl 8y ago
    As soon as you say wrong, you start sounding like the people running these churches. I am ok with people being wrong, that's why we have freedoms. It's society's job to pressure churches and other organizations to turn away from these dangerous beliefs. Not the governments. That's part of why I fight for freedoms like this. Wrong is subjective, the objective truth of wrong comes from society. If you allow governments to determine what is "wrong" we would have never gotten to the point that we are having these conversations. Some of our beliefs will be wrong to a future generation, by allowing them the freedom to change them through societal pressure we allow society to grow without creating the friction of civil unrest to grow from that vector.
    - qntty 8y ago
      Who's talking about the government? This is about Google. I'm talking about being factually wrong, not morally wrong.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

p1necone 8y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

ben_jones 8y ago

Declaring yourself as 'Liberal' is a way to identify yourself as someone who believes in a series of popularized beliefs held by the American Left (in this context I think it is a US-centric topic). In Silicon Valley these beliefs are extremely popular thus there is a large benefit for a company or individual to project themselves as a strong member of the group. What we are seeing is a rational judgement by Google which goes against the mainstay belief of American Liberals that anything but encouragement of LGBT is evil and is a harbinger back to recent US history where LGBT individuals were repressed and actively persecuted. I'm strongly against conversion therapy but if the facts I'm seeing are true I believe Google made the right decision because this app does not repress or actively persecute LGBT individuals. Also for what it's worth, though it shouldn't matter, I am a liberal. Offtopic: HN users use the downvote button as a way of hiding content they disagree with. It should instead be used to hide content that does NOT add to the discussion (or is hateful, or a few other valid reasons).

a1369209993 8y ago

> Does being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view? Empirically, yes, it does. It's true that it shouldn't, as you seem to be implying, but people seem to like thinking their enemies are irredeemably evil monsters, and liberalism isn't magically immune to that.

hinkley 8y ago

Intolerance of intolerance seems to go hand-in-glove with tolerance. Bullies need a victim, but they also need most other people to look the other way. These apps are mostly used on teenagers, with pressure from their parents and mentors. There's a fine line between bad parenting and bullying your kids, and there are certainly arguments about where that line is. All I know is my kid has two friends who fantasize about coming to live at our house (or getting emancipated) because their parents are homophobes. Some people know what kind of adult they're going to be, others are surprised by it, but if you're into puberty and think you probably aren't cisgendered, then I'm confident that you aren't destined to be a poster child for heteronormativity. At any rate, part of becoming an independent adult is learning to rely on yourself, on your instincts, on your own sense of right and wrong. If your parents spend your entire teen years telling you that you can't trust yourself, that's pretty fucked up.