9 ms·
Google resists pressure to pull LGBT “conversion therapy” app
- duxup 8y agoIt's pretty clear that if you provide a platform with any visible large scale user input, you're going to need some full time policing staff and decision makers who can take the time to look into things and make the call. Sometimes you're going to be wrong, and sometimes right, and often reactionary as you realize there is X, Y, and Z out there.
- thtthings 8y agoDoes being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view? I am pretty openminded myself and don't care of someone's orientation but everyone should have the right to do whatever the f they want as long as it's not hurting anybody. Don't tell me it's hurting their feelings!
- k7mqqn 8y agoBeing liberal doesn't mean you're open minded, as we're seeing lately.
- hello_friendos 8y agoConversion therapy does hurt people.
- umvi 8y agoNot if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion. Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children. It's one thing if it's a parent forcing their child to undergo conversion therapy. But I don't see anything wrong with an adult who has an unwanted sexual attraction trying conversion therapy.
- lol768 8y ago>Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children I'm not sure this is a helpful comparison to draw.
- jpkiser 8y agoWhy not? Being straight takes on the form of having a sexual desire to the opportunity sex. Being gay takes on the form of have sexual desires for the same sex. Why should pedophilia, or zoophilia, or any other the other niche sexual attractions be treated differently?
- duxup 8y ago>Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children. What does that have to do with conversion therapy? Are you connecting homosexuality to pedophilia?
- dunkmaster 8y agoThey are both innate sexual preferences. However I disagree with the original statement because there is indeed no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction.
- Pfhreak 8y ago> Not if it's voluntary and desired by the person undergoing conversion Citation needed. LGBT+ people who seek conversion therapy can still be hurt by it. > Otherwise there is no hope for pedophiles wishing to rid themselves of their attraction to children Bringing up pedophelia in the context of LGBT+ people has a long history of being used to other and shame LGBT+ people. I'd encourage you to find a different example (or just stay on topic -- conversion therapy for LGBT+ people.)
- umvi 8y agoLet me break it down: An adult has a sexual attraction that they didn't choose to have and that they don't want to have. Are they stuck for life? Or is it possible some form of therapy could help?
- 0wnt_U_B 8y agoNot if the person wants to be converted (been there done that). So you burning books (or software) only hurts thousands of people like me, and makes you intolerant of diversity.
- lizardskull 8y agoThe knob hill glory holes hurt people
- qntty 8y agoSeems like a matter of consistency more than anything. Google has already decided to make an app store that excludes things like overt racism. Seems like if you're going to exclude racism you should also exclude homophobia. Whether we should tolerate both these people is an interesting question, but not the issue in this case.
- kieckerjan 8y agoHmm, not sure if that logic flies. There are many people who hold the view that race (whatever that may be) is innate while homosexuality is not. They would argue that the latter can be “cured” while the former cannot. From that perspective the distinction makes sense. (I do not subscribe to that view at all, btw.)
- qntty 8y agoYes, these people are wrong. We must be able to make judgements of fact to make good decisions about these things.
- bargl 8y agoAs soon as you say wrong, you start sounding like the people running these churches. I am ok with people being wrong, that's why we have freedoms. It's society's job to pressure churches and other organizations to turn away from these dangerous beliefs. Not the governments. That's part of why I fight for freedoms like this. Wrong is subjective, the objective truth of wrong comes from society. If you allow governments to determine what is "wrong" we would have never gotten to the point that we are having these conversations. Some of our beliefs will be wrong to a future generation, by allowing them the freedom to change them through societal pressure we allow society to grow without creating the friction of civil unrest to grow from that vector.
- qntty 8y agoWho's talking about the government? This is about Google. I'm talking about being factually wrong, not morally wrong.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- p1necone 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
- ben_jones 8y agoDeclaring yourself as 'Liberal' is a way to identify yourself as someone who believes in a series of popularized beliefs held by the American Left (in this context I think it is a US-centric topic). In Silicon Valley these beliefs are extremely popular thus there is a large benefit for a company or individual to project themselves as a strong member of the group. What we are seeing is a rational judgement by Google which goes against the mainstay belief of American Liberals that anything but encouragement of LGBT is evil and is a harbinger back to recent US history where LGBT individuals were repressed and actively persecuted. I'm strongly against conversion therapy but if the facts I'm seeing are true I believe Google made the right decision because this app does not repress or actively persecute LGBT individuals. Also for what it's worth, though it shouldn't matter, I am a liberal. Offtopic: HN users use the downvote button as a way of hiding content they disagree with. It should instead be used to hide content that does NOT add to the discussion (or is hateful, or a few other valid reasons).
- a1369209993 8y ago> Does being liberal mean you are tolerant only if it suits your point of view? Empirically, yes, it does. It's true that it shouldn't, as you seem to be implying, but people seem to like thinking their enemies are irredeemably evil monsters, and liberalism isn't magically immune to that.
- hinkley 8y agoIntolerance of intolerance seems to go hand-in-glove with tolerance. Bullies need a victim, but they also need most other people to look the other way. These apps are mostly used on teenagers, with pressure from their parents and mentors. There's a fine line between bad parenting and bullying your kids, and there are certainly arguments about where that line is. All I know is my kid has two friends who fantasize about coming to live at our house (or getting emancipated) because their parents are homophobes. Some people know what kind of adult they're going to be, others are surprised by it, but if you're into puberty and think you probably aren't cisgendered, then I'm confident that you aren't destined to be a poster child for heteronormativity. At any rate, part of becoming an independent adult is learning to rely on yourself, on your instincts, on your own sense of right and wrong. If your parents spend your entire teen years telling you that you can't trust yourself, that's pretty fucked up.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y agoIt's hard to tell from the article, but this doesn't sound like conversion therapy at all, it sounds like voluntarily downloading a set of articles and testimonials. Either I'm missing something or the reaction is overzealous.
- ngngngng 8y agoI'm seeing that as well. For a while I was under the impression that "conversion therapy" was meant to refer to outdated and disproved forms of therapy like electric shocks that were now considered inhumane. But this app just seems like some religious reading to convince you not to be gay.
- pseudalopex 8y agoYou might be thinking of aversion therapy. Conversion therapy is also considered outdated, unproven, and unethical.[1] [1] https://www.hrc.org/resources/policy-and-position-statements-on-conversion-therapy https://www.hrc.org/resources/policy-and-position-statements...
- djsumdog 8y agoThere are no easy ways to get 3rd party apps onto a device. You can't import your own repo easily like you can with apt/yum/etc. Google/Apple/Amazon stores are bastardizations of the idea of a package repository. Because of this, these companies have a monopoly on types of content. They literally control big parts of the medium for the general public. Honestly, I think it's unfair to pull these apps. You might disagree with the ideas behind them, but individuals should have the choice and options if that is the route and those are the choices they want to make with their own lives. So long as they don't openly advocate violence, ideas should be free. At what point do these type of restrictions affect peoples' freedom of religion?
- chris_mc 8y ago>At what point do these type of restrictions affect peoples' freedom of religion? At the point they don't have any other options. They can teach their conversion therapy in person if they want. They can make websites. They can send out newsletters. They can write books. Why should Google, Apple, MS, or anyone else be forced to host this app? It's clear that the "community standards" don't allow for apps like this, because 139k people want it out and ~20 want the app to stay.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- p1necone 8y agoConversion Therapy seems a lot like violence to me... Although I do agree with you on locked down app stores being a bad idea. Edit: also conversion therapy isn't really what this thing was anyway it seems.
- chrinic83 8y ago> Conversion Therapy seems a lot like violence to me... It doesn't to me. Who is right?
- lenticular 8y ago
- itchyjunk 8y agoIsn't `conversion therapy` what the opponent is calling it? If the app doesn't violate TOS, i'd rather it stay. People can choose not to download it (at least as I see it). Another group might have as issue with, say, astrology. I wouldn't think taking down astrology apps would be a solution either.
- qntty 8y agoSeems somewhat more likely that this would do harm compared to astrology. There's a very real possibility that someone who doesn't know any better might take the concrete advice of the app. Most astrology apps aren't very specific about what they recommend you doing, and don't tend to recommend things that are clearly bad advice for everyone.
- themacguffinman 8y agoBut do we really want to expand the app banlist to include "contains harmful advice"? That's a very broad, vague, and politically charged category. Seriously, how far do people want Apple & Google to go in protecting their mental bubble?
- qntty 8y agoHelping people live in a mental bubble of homophobia is precisely the problem. People who would be vulnerable to an app like this would be people from places that don't give them access to too much good information about sexuality.
- fzeroracer 8y agoIf an app for kids said that you could reach a magical land of unicorns and rainbows by drinking a cup of Bleach, do you believe Google should be obliged to host that app? If we can establish that yes, some advice is far too harmful to allow propagate, then we can accept that we have to draw lines as to what constitutes harmful advice. Which then brings us back to the core point: Would conversion therapy constitute harmful advice? Considering statistically it seems to increase the rate of suicide in people exposed to it and does not actually succeed at what it's supposed to do, I think it would be reasonable for a person to consider it harmful advice.
- ben174 8y agoLiving Hope's open letter to Tim Cook is worthy of reading: https://livehope.org/2019/01/31/open_letter_apple/ https://livehope.org/2019/01/31/open_letter_apple/ They clearly state they are not a conversion therapy app, but rather a source of content and support for people who feel that their ways are against their own religion. I do not support "converting" anyone in any way, but I am very against groups trying to silence people because of their beliefs.
- bargl 8y agoYou can be against what someone is saying and for someone being able to say it. I think that's lost on a lot of people, I'm glad you point this out.
- chc 8y agoThere's a still more subtle distinction that I think is also lost on people: You can be in favor of someone being able to say something, but still be opposed to them actually saying it in a given situation. For example, I don't think people should be barred from saying they hate me and wish ill on me. But I still am strongly opposed to them saying it, and if somebody is saying that around me, I'll either try to get them to stop, get them to go away, or extricate myself. I respect their right to independent thought, but I'm still not going to idly stand by for that. So I don't think we should do stings to find people discussing how they think it would be cool to traumatize gay kids, but I do think we should oppose them trying to traumatize gay kids within our sphere of influence. And even with the social awareness of the modern age, people still feel pretty free to push for horrible stuff like this in public, so I'm not worried we're going too far at this exact moment.
- qntty 8y agoIt's hard to take that too seriously if you know the reality of how organizations like this operate. They know how to make themselves seems innocuous but they are a part of a larger system of psychological abuse and violence.
- lenticular 8y ago
- keepper 8y agoI'm probably as leftist as you can be (and agnostic)... but this trend is a bit ridiculous. Some in the left are becoming as intellectually dishonest as some in the right/conservative side. You may dislike religious doctrine, but this is the type of argument that keeps "adult content" and similar "for the good of the children" apps away from the apple store. You can be both PRO LGBT rights, and also PRO people can hold differing opinions. Policing morality is bad for both the religious AND the marginalized.
- OrgNet 8y agoconverting as many people as possible to being gay is a good thing because it limits population growth... (I know most people are anti-gay but not me)
- dang 8y agoIf you continue to post unsubstantive comments to HN, or flamebait or trollish ones, we're going to ban you. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- apo 8y ago> That said, Google could face a backlash from the other side of the ideological divide if it reverses course. Google faces a backlash regardless. However, the "deplatforming" trend of the last couple of years is deeply worrying. Today Living Hope Ministries could be deplatformed from the Google app store. Tomorrow it could be deplatformed from PayPal. Someday maybe banks will deplatform them as well. The problem is intertwined with the tendency for technology to produce monopolies. When the one platform that matters (say, Amazon if you're an author) decides to deplatform you, it's a blow you might not recover from. There may be a ray of hope here, though. Left to its own devices, deplatforming will tend to produce a monoculture repellant to large numbers people (think about the narrow range of Disney movies). The deplatformed (and their supporters) will seek out new platforms more tolerant of actual diversity, rather than the pretend diversity gaining favor today. Some of them will thrive and eventually challenge today's gatekeepers.
- goldcd 8y agoGood god, just wait until somebody discovers the number of 'horoscope' or 'biorhythms' apps that are available on both Google and Apple's stores. More seriously, my inner adolescent doesn't want to lose the ability to give a one-star rating, due to my increased love-of-cock after downloading the app.
- thinkingemote 8y agoThank you for a bit of sanity amongst the flames!
- duxup 8y agoSo I downloaded the app to take a look around. It has a lot of text and audio so there's no way for me to really review it comprehensively. If there was something about gay conversion therapy in it I missed it. Maybe someone can point out where I can find it but it just seemed to be pretty standard audio sermons and text. I think gay conversion therapy can be harmful, but I'm just not seeing it here....
- deweller 8y agoI'm seeing an increasing trend of tech companies classifying content with opposing beliefs as dangerous or harmful. This is a very scary precedent we are setting here. We are taking away power from the voting public and putting it in the hands of tech company executives. Regardless of what side of these debates you fall on, please consider the ramifications of what is happening here.
- Grue3 8y agoDo they still have that women-tracking app from Saudi Arabia? It's laughable how these app stores try to represent themselves as the arbiters of morality by banning anything involving porn, but literal human rights abuses are ok.