6 ms·

The Priest of Abu Ghraib

113 points by colossal 8y ago

tlanc 8y ago
This was a very moving piece, beautifully written. The story itself reminds me of a parable. Thank you for posting.
sunils34 8y ago
This was hauntingly beautiful. A story of conscience and reconciliation with the paradoxes of war and personal spirituality/religion. His decision to join the war as an interrogator, believing his presence and oversight would ensure the humane treatment of prisoners is admirable. I often wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious participation to ensure abuses are minimized.
- tlanc 8y ago
  In this telling he tried to effect change from within, but was overwhelmed, both spiritually and physically, by what he found there. If there is a positive to draw from it it lies in his ability to talk about the experience afterwards through drama and indirectly through this piece. I don't think that level of success often accrues to people trying to effect positive change from within.
- acct1771 8y ago
  Which one's more likely to be noticed (by the masses) and affect change? This article, years after, or the fact they have to increase wages 200+% because no one with a mirror will do the job?
- wallace_f 8y ago
  >I often wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious participation And I often hear people talk about how they would punch nazis. Yet when being in the reality of present day prevailing groupthink which justifies such abuses, expecting people to "conscientiously take part" is already getting hopeful.
- azimovsky 8y ago
  > A story of conscience I'm surprised you see this. I see it differently. Excuse my language, but I see a horse-shit sandwich. Have you read any Noam Chomsky? This is a great example of 'Manufacturing Consent' - through these feel good propaganda manufactured stories. Yes, I do think he believed his struggle was holy and justified. Yes, I am aware that this sounds harsh. For an honest confrontation with our very real Global North shadow watch this: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
  - azimovsky 8y ago
    Wow I did not read the whole article. But's it's actually pretty moving... Ok fuck it. I'm going to do a pluralist 'both/and'. It's both a horse-shit sandwich and a story of conscience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en
dpeck 8y ago
The notion that its better to have "good" people doing bad things than "bad" people is such a trash take, but it shows up in nearly every conversation of moral consequence these days.
- SiempreViernes 8y ago
  Yeah, bad is who does bad, not much more to it than that when it comes to torture and wars of convenience.
  - simonh 8y ago
    This person was an interrogator. Should armies not interrogate prisoners and not have interrogators? Is trying to obtain intelligence information from the enemy an inherently evil activity? If it is not, then yes it's better to have good people do this job than bad ones, as with any job.
    - pvaldes 8y ago
      In this case, yes, it was clearly evil. The videos speak volumes. There is not such thing as "good" people raping, torturing, humiliating, terrorizing and doing evil things to other helpless and disarmed people.
      - CharlesColeman 8y ago
        > There is not such thing as "good" people raping, torturing, humiliating, terrorizing and doing evil things to other helpless and disarmed people. There's no indication that he directly participated in any of that, and quite a bit to indicate he didn't. After all, he was heading towards pacifism before he was deployed, and became so disillusions that he was honorably discharged as a conscientious objector. I wouldn't be surprised if the people doing those evil things were careful to hide those activities from him. He seems like the kind of person who'd have caused problems for them, and they probably understood that.
    - PavlovsCat 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
runarb 8y ago
That he was able to get such good results from his interrogation using kindness and dialog instead of violence is interesting. This is apparently a known effect. Was a very interesting article posted here some time ago describing similar techniques that I found fascinating: https://psmag.com/social-justice/nazi-interrogator-revealed-value-kindness-84747 https://psmag.com/social-justice/nazi-interrogator-revealed-...
watwut 8y ago
Such a great godlike compassionate gentle guy ... working in Abu Ghraib without noting abuses and reporting them or even figuring out why that damm prisoner cries. I don't think I would have courage to report in such situation. Socialization that makes it all normal and very real consequences whistleblowers get would stop me. The issue is not dude. That issue is article writer trying to frame that work as something gentle glossing over the actual reality of the situation.
- azimovsky 8y ago
  > writer trying to frame that work as something gentle glossing over the actual reality of the situation. 100%. https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435 shows this. “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
spacedog11 8y ago
What a fascinating story. Thank you for sharing. I cried towards the end as I was learning about Casteel's death. I was hoping for a plot twist, because all along Casteel was described in the past tense, so I knew from the beginning that he might not be still alive but deep inside I was hoping that he is still alive. I was hoping for paragraph that says "and now Casteel is..." It sucks to lose someone with such integrity, values and good character. I feel like I have known him personally. May he rest in peace.
- jacquesm 8y ago
  > It sucks to lose someone with such integrity, values and good character. Sorry? Who with 'integrity, values and good character' joins an interrogation squad?
  - azimovsky 8y ago
    > Sorry? Who with 'integrity, values and good character' joins an interrogation squad? Best question on this thread. Some food for thought: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
  - Topolomancer 8y ago
    While I can understand your sentiment, it might also well be possible that such a person might be convinced of the righteousness of their cause. The article even gives some quotes along those lines. To paraphrase: "it's better if someone like me does the interrogation than someone who does not care about the Geneva convention". I think it is very hard to judge the motivations of people from the outside. The whole point of the article was to illustrate how torn you can be between your convictions, what you want to do, and what you actually do. Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough choices.
    - jacquesm 8y ago
      I really don't care if they are convinced of the righteousness of their cause. History is rife with examples of people who were convinced of the righteousness, that does not excuse them even a little bit. > Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough choices. That's why we talk about the ones who did. Since conscription in the US ended quite a while ago all of this is free choice.
fierro 8y ago
incredible piece. If you are thinking of reading this, and have a spare 20 minutes, commit.
- azimovsky 8y ago
  I wouldn't waste your time. Watch this instead, it's only 13 minutes long: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
jacquesm 8y ago
What a fucking whitewash. Anybody joining an interrogation squad knows what's ahead and those joining the group in Abu Ghraib, especially after the torture revelations really had no excuse. I feel about as much sympathy as I would towards a Nazi camp guard (sorry for the Godwin, but it seems applicable).
- azimovsky 8y ago
  Yup. For anyone who can't see this, or is offended by the above comment, please check this out: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
wespiser_2018 8y ago
War is hell. Such a beautiful story of being true to your self and finding your war through the anger and confusion of everything that influences us. Such a loss we lost this man, and many others like him, to environmental and chemical exposure issues in Iraq and Afghanistan.
stefantalpalaru 8y ago
Fascinating transition from the banality of evil to the suffering of the invader and the messianic journey of a religious fanatic who volunteered to go abroad to help spread death and destruction. This piece of propaganda would be too unbelievable for something like "The Man in the High Castle" - fiction, unlike reality, needs internal consistency.

113 points by colossal 8y ago

This was a very moving piece, beautifully written. The story itself reminds me of a parable. Thank you for posting.

This was hauntingly beautiful. A story of conscience and reconciliation with the paradoxes of war and personal spirituality/religion. His decision to join the war as an interrogator, believing his presence and oversight would ensure the humane treatment of prisoners is admirable. I often wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious participation to ensure abuses are minimized.

tlanc 8y ago
In this telling he tried to effect change from within, but was overwhelmed, both spiritually and physically, by what he found there. If there is a positive to draw from it it lies in his ability to talk about the experience afterwards through drama and indirectly through this piece. I don't think that level of success often accrues to people trying to effect positive change from within.
acct1771 8y ago
Which one's more likely to be noticed (by the masses) and affect change? This article, years after, or the fact they have to increase wages 200+% because no one with a mirror will do the job?
wallace_f 8y ago
>I often wonder what is the right thing to do: non-participation, or conscientious participation And I often hear people talk about how they would punch nazis. Yet when being in the reality of present day prevailing groupthink which justifies such abuses, expecting people to "conscientiously take part" is already getting hopeful.
azimovsky 8y ago
> A story of conscience I'm surprised you see this. I see it differently. Excuse my language, but I see a horse-shit sandwich. Have you read any Noam Chomsky? This is a great example of 'Manufacturing Consent' - through these feel good propaganda manufactured stories. Yes, I do think he believed his struggle was holy and justified. Yes, I am aware that this sounds harsh. For an honest confrontation with our very real Global North shadow watch this: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
- azimovsky 8y ago
  Wow I did not read the whole article. But's it's actually pretty moving... Ok fuck it. I'm going to do a pluralist 'both/and'. It's both a horse-shit sandwich and a story of conscience. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5xfBtD6rLY&vl=en

dpeck 8y ago

The notion that its better to have "good" people doing bad things than "bad" people is such a trash take, but it shows up in nearly every conversation of moral consequence these days.

SiempreViernes 8y ago
Yeah, bad is who does bad, not much more to it than that when it comes to torture and wars of convenience.
- simonh 8y ago
  This person was an interrogator. Should armies not interrogate prisoners and not have interrogators? Is trying to obtain intelligence information from the enemy an inherently evil activity? If it is not, then yes it's better to have good people do this job than bad ones, as with any job.
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    In this case, yes, it was clearly evil. The videos speak volumes. There is not such thing as "good" people raping, torturing, humiliating, terrorizing and doing evil things to other helpless and disarmed people.
    - CharlesColeman 8y ago
      > There is not such thing as "good" people raping, torturing, humiliating, terrorizing and doing evil things to other helpless and disarmed people. There's no indication that he directly participated in any of that, and quite a bit to indicate he didn't. After all, he was heading towards pacifism before he was deployed, and became so disillusions that he was honorably discharged as a conscientious objector. I wouldn't be surprised if the people doing those evil things were careful to hide those activities from him. He seems like the kind of person who'd have caused problems for them, and they probably understood that.
  - PavlovsCat 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

runarb 8y ago

That he was able to get such good results from his interrogation using kindness and dialog instead of violence is interesting. This is apparently a known effect. Was a very interesting article posted here some time ago describing similar techniques that I found fascinating: https://psmag.com/social-justice/nazi-interrogator-revealed-value-kindness-84747 https://psmag.com/social-justice/nazi-interrogator-revealed-...

watwut 8y ago

Such a great godlike compassionate gentle guy ... working in Abu Ghraib without noting abuses and reporting them or even figuring out why that damm prisoner cries. I don't think I would have courage to report in such situation. Socialization that makes it all normal and very real consequences whistleblowers get would stop me. The issue is not dude. That issue is article writer trying to frame that work as something gentle glossing over the actual reality of the situation.

azimovsky 8y ago
> writer trying to frame that work as something gentle glossing over the actual reality of the situation. 100%. https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435 shows this. “If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

spacedog11 8y ago

What a fascinating story. Thank you for sharing. I cried towards the end as I was learning about Casteel's death. I was hoping for a plot twist, because all along Casteel was described in the past tense, so I knew from the beginning that he might not be still alive but deep inside I was hoping that he is still alive. I was hoping for paragraph that says "and now Casteel is..." It sucks to lose someone with such integrity, values and good character. I feel like I have known him personally. May he rest in peace.

jacquesm 8y ago
> It sucks to lose someone with such integrity, values and good character. Sorry? Who with 'integrity, values and good character' joins an interrogation squad?
- azimovsky 8y ago
  > Sorry? Who with 'integrity, values and good character' joins an interrogation squad? Best question on this thread. Some food for thought: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435
- Topolomancer 8y ago
  While I can understand your sentiment, it might also well be possible that such a person might be convinced of the righteousness of their cause. The article even gives some quotes along those lines. To paraphrase: "it's better if someone like me does the interrogation than someone who does not care about the Geneva convention". I think it is very hard to judge the motivations of people from the outside. The whole point of the article was to illustrate how torn you can be between your convictions, what you want to do, and what you actually do. Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough choices.
  - jacquesm 8y ago
    I really don't care if they are convinced of the righteousness of their cause. History is rife with examples of people who were convinced of the righteousness, that does not excuse them even a little bit. > Most of us are very lucky insofar as we do not have to face such tough choices. That's why we talk about the ones who did. Since conscription in the US ended quite a while ago all of this is free choice.

fierro 8y ago

incredible piece. If you are thinking of reading this, and have a spare 20 minutes, commit.

azimovsky 8y ago
I wouldn't waste your time. Watch this instead, it's only 13 minutes long: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435

jacquesm 8y ago

What a fucking whitewash. Anybody joining an interrogation squad knows what's ahead and those joining the group in Abu Ghraib, especially after the torture revelations really had no excuse. I feel about as much sympathy as I would towards a Nazi camp guard (sorry for the Godwin, but it seems applicable).

azimovsky 8y ago
Yup. For anyone who can't see this, or is offended by the above comment, please check this out: https://vimeo.com/242569435 https://vimeo.com/242569435

wespiser_2018 8y ago

War is hell. Such a beautiful story of being true to your self and finding your war through the anger and confusion of everything that influences us. Such a loss we lost this man, and many others like him, to environmental and chemical exposure issues in Iraq and Afghanistan.

stefantalpalaru 8y ago

Fascinating transition from the banality of evil to the suffering of the invader and the messianic journey of a religious fanatic who volunteered to go abroad to help spread death and destruction. This piece of propaganda would be too unbelievable for something like "The Man in the High Castle" - fiction, unlike reality, needs internal consistency.