4 ms·

I can't speak for the entire European market, but software engineers in the UK are paid pittance compared to the U.S. - even for top shelf engineers with the ed

I can't speak for the entire European market, but software engineers in the UK are paid pittance compared to the U.S. - even for top shelf engineers with the education, a solid track record and glowing references. I've been keeping my eye on the UK market for years - the last 20 years to be exact in a bid to consider moving back home. I would have to consider an almost guaranteed 75% pay cut (incl. cost of living adjustment) to move. I have a British passport, I was born and grew up there until I was 25. I have a place to stay in London upon my arrival to help me get set up. I am legally allowed to take any job that would hire me. I still cannot justify the move. It's too much to ask of anyone. The reason the UK is not the tech giant the U.S. is, is that they don't take developers seriously. Until they stem the tide of developers leaving the UK for a decent income and cost of living, they're never ever going to have what the U.S. has. They don't need to legislate themselves into digital irrelevance, they're already digitally irrelevant, they just need to keep paying developers what they're paying them now.

pjc50 8y ago
Conversely, why are US tech companies not outsourcing more to drive up salaries?
- balabaster 8y ago
  Two reasons: 1. The top companies have finally managed to learn that outsourcing of your product to overseas companies drives the quality of the product into the ground. When you separate your project stakeholders and subject matter experts from your UX and development teams, shit falls to pieces in a hurry. 2. U.S. Tech companies don't give a shit about driving up global salaries, they give a shit about their own success and profits - right now. They already have a team fueling their success and they'd like to keep them close.
  - oarabbus_ 8y ago
    Outsourcing to low-quality shops in India drives the quality of the product into the ground. Outsouring to high-quality Indian firms, or to British/Euro firms, doesn't.
- sbacic 8y ago
  They are - I'd say that 90-95% of Croatia's IT companies are focused on serving those needs. I don't think that the situation is much different in most other smaller EU members. The problem is that high taxes and low tax brackets in Europe - particularly on salaries - are having a strong counter effect. I'm considering moving and I don't even make that much (by US standards, anyway).
- ericd 8y ago
  Why would US companies want to drive up salaries?
- IdiocyInAction 8y ago
  Some are. I live in a small, relatively wealthy country in Europe and my friends from Uni are all working for companies that almost exclusively serve US clients.
- chillacy 8y ago
  I’ve heard (not verified) that UK employment law means that it’s impossible to fire people after they have a year of tenure, so they’re reluctant to bring people on and eager to fire before the first year
  - ben_w 8y ago
    It’s possible, but there are rules about what you can and can’t do. It’s not “at-will”, in US terms: https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff
mpweiher 8y ago
Well, the UK in general and London in particular are particularly bad, because income (outside banking) is very so-so-ish, cost of living (not just housing, but that in particular) spectacularly high and quality of life (again, housing, commutes, infrastructure, etc.) not so spectacular. Berlin may have comparable salaries (for me it was actually better, but that was probably specific circumstances), but cost of living is dramatically lower and quality of life dramatically better.
BurningFrog 8y ago
> The reason the UK is not the tech giant the U.S. is, is that they don't take developers seriously What if we swap the chicken with the egg in that argument: Maybe UK engineers aren't paid as much as US engineers because UK companies aren't nearly as profitable as US ones? Another way to phrase that is that UK engineers, in the UK, don't produce as much value as UK engineers do in the US, which is why it makes sense for them to move.

pjc50 8y ago

Conversely, why are US tech companies not outsourcing more to drive up salaries?

balabaster 8y ago
Two reasons: 1. The top companies have finally managed to learn that outsourcing of your product to overseas companies drives the quality of the product into the ground. When you separate your project stakeholders and subject matter experts from your UX and development teams, shit falls to pieces in a hurry. 2. U.S. Tech companies don't give a shit about driving up global salaries, they give a shit about their own success and profits - right now. They already have a team fueling their success and they'd like to keep them close.
- oarabbus_ 8y ago
  Outsourcing to low-quality shops in India drives the quality of the product into the ground. Outsouring to high-quality Indian firms, or to British/Euro firms, doesn't.
sbacic 8y ago
They are - I'd say that 90-95% of Croatia's IT companies are focused on serving those needs. I don't think that the situation is much different in most other smaller EU members. The problem is that high taxes and low tax brackets in Europe - particularly on salaries - are having a strong counter effect. I'm considering moving and I don't even make that much (by US standards, anyway).
ericd 8y ago
Why would US companies want to drive up salaries?
IdiocyInAction 8y ago
Some are. I live in a small, relatively wealthy country in Europe and my friends from Uni are all working for companies that almost exclusively serve US clients.
chillacy 8y ago
I’ve heard (not verified) that UK employment law means that it’s impossible to fire people after they have a year of tenure, so they’re reluctant to bring people on and eager to fire before the first year
- ben_w 8y ago
  It’s possible, but there are rules about what you can and can’t do. It’s not “at-will”, in US terms: https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff https://www.gov.uk/dismiss-staff

mpweiher 8y ago

Well, the UK in general and London in particular are particularly bad, because income (outside banking) is very so-so-ish, cost of living (not just housing, but that in particular) spectacularly high and quality of life (again, housing, commutes, infrastructure, etc.) not so spectacular. Berlin may have comparable salaries (for me it was actually better, but that was probably specific circumstances), but cost of living is dramatically lower and quality of life dramatically better.

BurningFrog 8y ago

> The reason the UK is not the tech giant the U.S. is, is that they don't take developers seriously What if we swap the chicken with the egg in that argument: Maybe UK engineers aren't paid as much as US engineers because UK companies aren't nearly as profitable as US ones? Another way to phrase that is that UK engineers, in the UK, don't produce as much value as UK engineers do in the US, which is why it makes sense for them to move.