6 ms·

Corollary: Most web development simply lack the rigor of engineering.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
Most software engineers aren’t. Engineering requires licensing and exams through a governing body. Can’t have the prestige of the title without the responsibility. Software developers want to have their cake and eat it too (power and respect with no oversight and governance). Pile on the regulation (GDPR for starts, more PII protection to follow up, extremely painful fines for failures).
- EnFinlay 8y ago
  I couldn't agree more.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  In the US, you only need certifications and testing for a "professional engineer". Most electrical, chemical, mechanical, or civil engineers are not certified PEs. Yet I don't think anyone is claiming they aren't engineers.
  - tsbertalan 8y ago
    I have a PhD in chemical engineering, but not a PE, since I didn't go the industry route. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling myself an Engineer without it, and that was the attitude expressed by my professors and cohort coming out of undergrad.
    - mfoy_ 8y ago
      It's my opinion that the title "Engineer" should be on par with things like "Doctor" or "Lawyer". It should require certification and there should be consequences for claiming to be one if you aren't.
      - mcbits 8y ago
        I don't think anyone would get in trouble for job titles like "computer doctor" or "network protocol lawyer". Practicing medicine or practicing law (or in some cases, practicing as an engineer) without the required qualifications, regardless of job title ... different story.
- gridlockd 8y ago
  > Most software engineers aren’t. "Software Engineer" is just a job title. > Engineering requires licensing and exams through a governing body. "Software Engineering" doesn't, it's just a job title. > Can’t have the prestige of the title without the responsibility. There is no real-world prestige associated with having "Software Engineer" as a job title (as opposed to "Software Developer"). > Software developers want to have their cake and eat it too (power and respect with no oversight and governance). "Power and respect" is not actually something that is commonly associated with a guy sitting at a desk for a salary. > Pile on the regulation (GDPR for starts, more PII protection to follow up, extremely painful fine for failures). You just learned that Facebook stored passwords in plaintext for years and nothing bad happened. In fact, it's hard to conceive that anything particularly disastrous could have happened. Yet, you call for more regulation that will drive up costs for everything. Whole industries could become unprofitable and those high-paid "Software Engineers" would become redundant. I have the opposite opinion: The fact that computer security is generally poor teaches people how to properly use computers. They need to assume that there are no secrets, because that is the plain reality. No amount of regulation will make computers secure. No certification or best-practice encryption scheme will prevent users from writing their password on post-it notes, or from opening "sexy.jpg.exe", or from answering that call from the "Microsoft Service Center".
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    > "Software Engineer" is just a job title. And like the job title "sandwich engineer", it should probably be derided. Apologies to anybody working in the honorable trade of sandwich crafting. I love sandwiches and appreciate your work. They bring me much more enjoyment than software.
    - hombre_fatal 8y ago
      Same with electrical, chemical, mechanical, and civil engineers since almost none of them are PEs? Seems a bit silly.
    - randomdata 8y ago
      I agree. The job title is literally _engine_er. Unless you oversee the operation of engines (as in locomotives), you are not an engineer. But seriously, the definition of engineer in regular lexicon is someone who designs, builds, or maintains complex systems. I struggle to think how software does not tick all of those boxes. Sandwiches are a different story. Perhaps you are confusing engineer with professional engineer? I can see how it might be easy to mix them up if you are not paying attention, but professional engineer carries a different meaning. Most software engineers are not professional engineers but are unquestionably engineers.
- vonmoltke 8y ago
  > Engineering requires licensing and exams through a governing body. Offering engineering services to the public requires licensure. Working at places like Boeing, General Motors, Texas Instruments, and Caterpillar does not (for the vast majority of positions); It just requires an accredited engineering degree. Note that this is independent of the software industry needing more engineering rigor, which it desperately does.
- balls187 8y ago
  > Software developers want to have their cake and eat it too (power and respect with no oversight and governance). This doesn't come from software developers. This comes from the SV culture of "move fast and break things."
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    I painted too broad strokes. I agree, and admit my mistake.
    - mfoy_ 8y ago
      Just replace "software developer" with "self-proclaimed software engineer" in your comment and you'd be spot-on.
      - balls187 8y ago
        Nothing about engineering really covers security best principles and practices. I went through classical engineering school, and I'd summarize with three categories: * Newtonian Physics & The Mathematics Behind It (i.e. Differential Equations) * Ethics * Technical Communications
        mfoy_ 8y ago
        That's because there is no software engineering program, and other engineering programs don't deal with "security" per se.
        balls187 8y ago
        My alma mater offers a degree in Software Engineering.
  - jammygit 8y ago
    I think that was actually invented at Facebook in the early days, unless I'm mistaken. Its a good mantra unless its security related
mfoy_ 8y ago
A lot of HNers probably have the job title "software engineer" without any of the qualifications of an "engineer"... that's probably why you're being down-voted. But you're not wrong.

Most software engineers aren’t. Engineering requires licensing and exams through a governing body. Can’t have the prestige of the title without the responsibility. Software developers want to have their cake and eat it too (power and respect with no oversight and governance). Pile on the regulation (GDPR for starts, more PII protection to follow up, extremely painful fines for failures).

EnFinlay 8y ago
I couldn't agree more.
jjeaff 8y ago
In the US, you only need certifications and testing for a "professional engineer". Most electrical, chemical, mechanical, or civil engineers are not certified PEs. Yet I don't think anyone is claiming they aren't engineers.
- tsbertalan 8y ago
  I have a PhD in chemical engineering, but not a PE, since I didn't go the industry route. I wouldn't feel comfortable calling myself an Engineer without it, and that was the attitude expressed by my professors and cohort coming out of undergrad.
  - mfoy_ 8y ago
    It's my opinion that the title "Engineer" should be on par with things like "Doctor" or "Lawyer". It should require certification and there should be consequences for claiming to be one if you aren't.
    - mcbits 8y ago
      I don't think anyone would get in trouble for job titles like "computer doctor" or "network protocol lawyer". Practicing medicine or practicing law (or in some cases, practicing as an engineer) without the required qualifications, regardless of job title ... different story.
gridlockd 8y ago
> Most software engineers aren’t. "Software Engineer" is just a job title. > Engineering requires licensing and exams through a governing body. "Software Engineering" doesn't, it's just a job title. > Can’t have the prestige of the title without the responsibility. There is no real-world prestige associated with having "Software Engineer" as a job title (as opposed to "Software Developer"). > Software developers want to have their cake and eat it too (power and respect with no oversight and governance). "Power and respect" is not actually something that is commonly associated with a guy sitting at a desk for a salary. > Pile on the regulation (GDPR for starts, more PII protection to follow up, extremely painful fine for failures). You just learned that Facebook stored passwords in plaintext for years and nothing bad happened. In fact, it's hard to conceive that anything particularly disastrous could have happened. Yet, you call for more regulation that will drive up costs for everything. Whole industries could become unprofitable and those high-paid "Software Engineers" would become redundant. I have the opposite opinion: The fact that computer security is generally poor teaches people how to properly use computers. They need to assume that there are no secrets, because that is the plain reality. No amount of regulation will make computers secure. No certification or best-practice encryption scheme will prevent users from writing their password on post-it notes, or from opening "sexy.jpg.exe", or from answering that call from the "Microsoft Service Center".
- darkpuma 8y ago
  > "Software Engineer" is just a job title. And like the job title "sandwich engineer", it should probably be derided. Apologies to anybody working in the honorable trade of sandwich crafting. I love sandwiches and appreciate your work. They bring me much more enjoyment than software.
  - hombre_fatal 8y ago
    Same with electrical, chemical, mechanical, and civil engineers since almost none of them are PEs? Seems a bit silly.
  - randomdata 8y ago
    I agree. The job title is literally _engine_er. Unless you oversee the operation of engines (as in locomotives), you are not an engineer. But seriously, the definition of engineer in regular lexicon is someone who designs, builds, or maintains complex systems. I struggle to think how software does not tick all of those boxes. Sandwiches are a different story. Perhaps you are confusing engineer with professional engineer? I can see how it might be easy to mix them up if you are not paying attention, but professional engineer carries a different meaning. Most software engineers are not professional engineers but are unquestionably engineers.
vonmoltke 8y ago
> Engineering requires licensing and exams through a governing body. Offering engineering services to the public requires licensure. Working at places like Boeing, General Motors, Texas Instruments, and Caterpillar does not (for the vast majority of positions); It just requires an accredited engineering degree. Note that this is independent of the software industry needing more engineering rigor, which it desperately does.
balls187 8y ago
> Software developers want to have their cake and eat it too (power and respect with no oversight and governance). This doesn't come from software developers. This comes from the SV culture of "move fast and break things."
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  I painted too broad strokes. I agree, and admit my mistake.
  - mfoy_ 8y ago
    Just replace "software developer" with "self-proclaimed software engineer" in your comment and you'd be spot-on.
    - balls187 8y ago
      Nothing about engineering really covers security best principles and practices. I went through classical engineering school, and I'd summarize with three categories: * Newtonian Physics & The Mathematics Behind It (i.e. Differential Equations) * Ethics * Technical Communications
      - mfoy_ 8y ago
        That's because there is no software engineering program, and other engineering programs don't deal with "security" per se.
        balls187 8y ago
        My alma mater offers a degree in Software Engineering.
- jammygit 8y ago
  I think that was actually invented at Facebook in the early days, unless I'm mistaken. Its a good mantra unless its security related

mfoy_ 8y ago

A lot of HNers probably have the job title "software engineer" without any of the qualifications of an "engineer"... that's probably why you're being down-voted. But you're not wrong.