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> This is accentuated by the fact that bitcoin can't be used in fractional-reserve-banking. I don't know what you mean to say here, but you can absolutely use

> This is accentuated by the fact that bitcoin can't be used in fractional-reserve-banking. I don't know what you mean to say here, but you can absolutely use bitcoin for fractional-reserve banking, just as gold was used through history. Pretty much since the dawn of banking, a bank collects reserves from its depositors, and then loans outs a designated fraction of those reserves. It's not like that process was somehow invented with the Federal Reserve. What you cannot do is have a lender of last resort with the ability to print money out of thin air, who can then flood the economy with cheap money; But that has nothing to do with fractional-reserve banking.

ucaetano 8y ago
No, you can't, you need to create a new "currency" to do so. You can't do fractional reserve banking with gold. What banks did was create "gold bonds" that were just a promise to pay. And then you're just creating a bitcoin-back currency, which at some point will inevitably see the same fate as all currencies did, and being de-linked from bitcoin just as other currencies were de-linked from gold.
- andrewla 8y ago
  People can and did do fractional reserve banking with gold. Notes for deposits was a much later innovation. Nothing stops you from lending out physical specie from your vault as long as you can give depositors their money with high probability when they demand it.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    No, they didn't. They did fractional reserve with gold-denominated currencies. Sure, you could create a bitcoin-denominated currency (a terrible idea, but let's entertain it) and perform fractional-reserve banking on it. But at that point, bitcoins become irrelevant.
    - andrewla 8y ago
      Well, we could go back and forth with "no they didn't" and "yes they did". Let's throw in some citations. You're in a hard place, because proving a negative is tricky. So I think it's incumbent on me to provide some examples. Let me start by throwing out a little bit of terminology just to make it clear if we're on the same page. Loans have existed since money existed. The only difference between a private loan and fractional reserve banking is that the lender is a) lending someone else's money and b) allowing depositors to withdraw money despite the fact that the sum of all depositor's money is not physically possessed by the bank. Wikipedia's page [1] is a reasonable place to start. The Babylonians were issuing loans in gold. The Greek and Egyptians were issuing loans in gold. The Romans were issuing loans in gold. None of these (except the Egyptians, with their seed grain short-term currencies) were issuing any sort of derivative currency or notes. Throughout medieval times, letters of credit were frequently used as a form of correspondence banking [2] for travelers. The lack of high-speed communication meant that the settlement and clearing of loans could take months or years, but the depositors (correspondent banks in foreign countries) were unlikely to make any immediate claims on their deposits except through such letters. The letters could be redeemed, usually, directly for gold. You can argue whether this constitutes fractional reserve banking; it's in some ways closer to what we would now call "corporate paper"; very short-term credit extended to very high trust individuals or institutions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Earliest_forms_of_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Earliest_fo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank
      - ucaetano 8y ago
        Loaning gold isn't performing FRB on gold.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
        jpmattia 8y ago
        > Loaning gold isn't performing FRB on gold. It is, in fact, exactly what fractional-reserve banking means: Loaning a fraction of your reserves. BTW: The exchanges are creating money by allowing margin: There is already a difference between M0 and M1 in the bitcoin economy.
- jpmattia 8y ago
  > No, you can't, you need to create a new "currency" to do so. You are confusing "fraction-reserve banking" with something else, probably "quantitative easing". There is no requirement to create currency with fractional-reserve banking: A bank simply loans out a fraction of its reserves, which has the effect of creating money, but only in the sense of increasing M1. M0 remains constant.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    In different perspectives, you are both correct. Particularly, there is a sense in which bank account balances are a separate currency redeemable in the currency in which they are denominated, so that, yes, you have to create a separate currency to do fractional reserve banking, but it's the kind of currency that various entities are going to be creating as soon as you want to support any kind of useful ecosystem around a cryptocurrency, including exchanges.
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      Exactly, and the difference of trying to do FRB with bitcoin or gold is that the new currency being created isn't the original currency. In the case of USD, for example, a USD created by a bank is indistinguishable from one you deposited on the bank. You could say that being able to double spend in certain conditions is a feature of modern currencies, and largely necessary for a stable economy, which is impossible under bitcoin.
    - jpmattia 8y ago
      > "Particularly, there is a sense in which bank account balances are a separate currency" You can define "credits" and "debits" in a currency to be a separate currency, but since that has been in the lexicon for millenia, you'd have a very long road ahead for acceptance of terminology like that. There is a reason why we define M1 as different from M0. Trying to say that bitcoin is some newfangled currency that demands M0 and M1 be equal? Good luck with that.
- delecti 8y ago
  Doesn't it depend on whether you deposit your bitcoin into a bank? If everyone's always only keeps their money in personal wallets then you'd be correct, even if banks were just "a wallet but we maintain it" then you'd still be correct. But if banks continued to work like they do now, where you deposit your money into the bank, and then they show a number when you login, but it's just what they "owe" you. In that case they could continue to do fractional reserve banking just as they do now. So basically this debate is not whether fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin, but whether banking with bitcoin would continue to resemble banking now.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    > Doesn't it depend on whether you deposit your bitcoin into a bank? Why would you? You can get better returns by simply holding it (since it is deflationary) than by lending it out or investing in productive assets. And even if you deposited, you can't "double spend" the bitcoin, so you can't do FRB with it. > So basically this debate is not whether fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin, but whether banking with bitcoin would continue to resemble banking now. It is both. You need FRB to dynamically adjust the supply of money and keep a balance with demand. And the fact that nobody will invest, which kills economic growth. No new startups, no new factories, no new bridges, no new houses, etc...
    - dpc_pw 8y ago
      > Why would you? You can get better returns by simply holding it (since it is deflationary) than by lending it out or investing in productive assets. There's obviously a balance in this scenario, as slower investment pace, makes for slower expectation of BTC value increase. Only "investments" of very low expected return are being prevented by lack of monetary inflation. If BTC-based monetary system produces relatively slow .5% global growth, that means only investments with expected return lower than .5% are not going to happen. Which is a feature, not a bug. It makes growth cycle much more stable and self-balancing. Too high growth slows down investing cycle, low growth speeds it up. No need for central bankers. And it's not that much different than current monetary system anyway, where people just throw they currency into speculative, unproductive assets to escape inflation. Nowadays things like housing serves the role of Bitcoin.

ucaetano 8y ago

No, you can't, you need to create a new "currency" to do so. You can't do fractional reserve banking with gold. What banks did was create "gold bonds" that were just a promise to pay. And then you're just creating a bitcoin-back currency, which at some point will inevitably see the same fate as all currencies did, and being de-linked from bitcoin just as other currencies were de-linked from gold.

andrewla 8y ago
People can and did do fractional reserve banking with gold. Notes for deposits was a much later innovation. Nothing stops you from lending out physical specie from your vault as long as you can give depositors their money with high probability when they demand it.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  No, they didn't. They did fractional reserve with gold-denominated currencies. Sure, you could create a bitcoin-denominated currency (a terrible idea, but let's entertain it) and perform fractional-reserve banking on it. But at that point, bitcoins become irrelevant.
  - andrewla 8y ago
    Well, we could go back and forth with "no they didn't" and "yes they did". Let's throw in some citations. You're in a hard place, because proving a negative is tricky. So I think it's incumbent on me to provide some examples. Let me start by throwing out a little bit of terminology just to make it clear if we're on the same page. Loans have existed since money existed. The only difference between a private loan and fractional reserve banking is that the lender is a) lending someone else's money and b) allowing depositors to withdraw money despite the fact that the sum of all depositor's money is not physically possessed by the bank. Wikipedia's page [1] is a reasonable place to start. The Babylonians were issuing loans in gold. The Greek and Egyptians were issuing loans in gold. The Romans were issuing loans in gold. None of these (except the Egyptians, with their seed grain short-term currencies) were issuing any sort of derivative currency or notes. Throughout medieval times, letters of credit were frequently used as a form of correspondence banking [2] for travelers. The lack of high-speed communication meant that the settlement and clearing of loans could take months or years, but the depositors (correspondent banks in foreign countries) were unlikely to make any immediate claims on their deposits except through such letters. The letters could be redeemed, usually, directly for gold. You can argue whether this constitutes fractional reserve banking; it's in some ways closer to what we would now call "corporate paper"; very short-term credit extended to very high trust individuals or institutions. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Earliest_forms_of_banking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_banking#Earliest_fo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_bank
    - ucaetano 8y ago
      Loaning gold isn't performing FRB on gold.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - jpmattia 8y ago
        > Loaning gold isn't performing FRB on gold. It is, in fact, exactly what fractional-reserve banking means: Loaning a fraction of your reserves. BTW: The exchanges are creating money by allowing margin: There is already a difference between M0 and M1 in the bitcoin economy.
jpmattia 8y ago
> No, you can't, you need to create a new "currency" to do so. You are confusing "fraction-reserve banking" with something else, probably "quantitative easing". There is no requirement to create currency with fractional-reserve banking: A bank simply loans out a fraction of its reserves, which has the effect of creating money, but only in the sense of increasing M1. M0 remains constant.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  In different perspectives, you are both correct. Particularly, there is a sense in which bank account balances are a separate currency redeemable in the currency in which they are denominated, so that, yes, you have to create a separate currency to do fractional reserve banking, but it's the kind of currency that various entities are going to be creating as soon as you want to support any kind of useful ecosystem around a cryptocurrency, including exchanges.
  - ucaetano 8y ago
    Exactly, and the difference of trying to do FRB with bitcoin or gold is that the new currency being created isn't the original currency. In the case of USD, for example, a USD created by a bank is indistinguishable from one you deposited on the bank. You could say that being able to double spend in certain conditions is a feature of modern currencies, and largely necessary for a stable economy, which is impossible under bitcoin.
  - jpmattia 8y ago
    > "Particularly, there is a sense in which bank account balances are a separate currency" You can define "credits" and "debits" in a currency to be a separate currency, but since that has been in the lexicon for millenia, you'd have a very long road ahead for acceptance of terminology like that. There is a reason why we define M1 as different from M0. Trying to say that bitcoin is some newfangled currency that demands M0 and M1 be equal? Good luck with that.
delecti 8y ago
Doesn't it depend on whether you deposit your bitcoin into a bank? If everyone's always only keeps their money in personal wallets then you'd be correct, even if banks were just "a wallet but we maintain it" then you'd still be correct. But if banks continued to work like they do now, where you deposit your money into the bank, and then they show a number when you login, but it's just what they "owe" you. In that case they could continue to do fractional reserve banking just as they do now. So basically this debate is not whether fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin, but whether banking with bitcoin would continue to resemble banking now.
- ucaetano 8y ago
  > Doesn't it depend on whether you deposit your bitcoin into a bank? Why would you? You can get better returns by simply holding it (since it is deflationary) than by lending it out or investing in productive assets. And even if you deposited, you can't "double spend" the bitcoin, so you can't do FRB with it. > So basically this debate is not whether fractional reserve banking is possible with bitcoin, but whether banking with bitcoin would continue to resemble banking now. It is both. You need FRB to dynamically adjust the supply of money and keep a balance with demand. And the fact that nobody will invest, which kills economic growth. No new startups, no new factories, no new bridges, no new houses, etc...
  - dpc_pw 8y ago
    > Why would you? You can get better returns by simply holding it (since it is deflationary) than by lending it out or investing in productive assets. There's obviously a balance in this scenario, as slower investment pace, makes for slower expectation of BTC value increase. Only "investments" of very low expected return are being prevented by lack of monetary inflation. If BTC-based monetary system produces relatively slow .5% global growth, that means only investments with expected return lower than .5% are not going to happen. Which is a feature, not a bug. It makes growth cycle much more stable and self-balancing. Too high growth slows down investing cycle, low growth speeds it up. No need for central bankers. And it's not that much different than current monetary system anyway, where people just throw they currency into speculative, unproductive assets to escape inflation. Nowadays things like housing serves the role of Bitcoin.