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> Please don’t apply these steps to non-technical people’s browsers. There's a fair amount of stuff in the article. You are right that it would be hard to mana

> Please don’t apply these steps to non-technical people’s browsers. There's a fair amount of stuff in the article. You are right that it would be hard to manage if someone implemented all of the recommendations. But there's some solid advice in there. An ad-blocker like ublock-origin is a must-have ESPECIALLY for so-called nontechnical folks. I make sure to put that on the browsers of my extended family whenever I visit and inevitably get asked to "clean" computers. Does it help prevent malware? Hard to say but I think yes.

floatingatoll 8y ago
The guide does not offer the nuance you suggest, and instead follows the standard approach of such guides, recommending all possible steps without any criteria by which to filter them for usability or other. An ad-blocker like uOrigin can break online courseware and banking sites. If you install it on a student’s machine, and the ad block you consider ‘mandatory’ damages their experience, they might decide to drop (or fail) their course if they can’t figure out how to undo the damage you’ve done to their browser. Non-experts cannot repair the issues caused by experts inflicting these steps on their computers. Don’t be that expert.
- the_duke 8y ago
  I have noticed very, very few essential websites (like banking, University, Government sites, ...) breaking when using the standard lists of uBlock origin. Sites that break are almost always fishy. But I have started telling people that, when a site is not working properly, they may be able to fix it by clicking the shield button and then the big power button to turn the blocker off. That's usually enough. You are being a bit over-dramatic here I think. Most younger people are smart enough to try a different approach (eg using the phone or tablet instead).
  - floatingatoll 8y ago
    I’ve been doing personal computer support for family and friends since the 90s. My views derive from my experiences supporting them. I spent forty-five minutes teaching someone to press the home button on an iPad last year. You greatly overestimate the lower bounds of competence of unskilled folks.
    - bloopernova 8y ago
      And the lower bounds of confidence too. A lot of people I've encountered are quite scared of computers, and experience a significant amount of anxiety when asked to use a computer in front of someone. What to us is as natural as reaching for something, is to them a task to be feared, anticipated with dread, embarrassment and shame. All IT related people should spend time with such folks, as you did. It would definitely help the industry if we were all a lot more open and sympathetic to people who are mystified, scared, or angered by computers and software.
    - the_duke 8y ago
      You do bring up an interesting point. I could never teach my grandmother what an ad blocker is and how to disable it if a site is not working. That would be far beyond her reach. Some basic Youtube browsing and email reading/writing is the peak for her. I was mostly commenting on the <=45 crowd where some basic computer literacy is usually there and can be beefed up, in my experience. Yet our older generations are probably the ones that would need an ad blocker the most to prevent them from ending up on fishing/scamming sites etc.
- crispyambulance 8y ago
  To be complete, yes, I do instruct the users how to turn off ublock origin. Most users, even those in my extended family, are able to understand the concept of ad-blocking as well as turning it on and off when someone takes the time and attention to explain it to them. Ublock is especially user-friendly for all the most basic use-cases. They're better off with adblocking, seriously. No one is actually going to fail an online course because of adblocking. If someone who does online banking can't handle the most basic concepts of computer hygiene to the point of turning off an adblocker and knowing when it's safe to do so-- they probably should stick to brick and mortar banking. As bad as some web-browsing inconveniences are, these pale in comparison to having a computer beset with malware.
  - floatingatoll 8y ago
    > If someone who does online banking can't handle the most basic concepts of computer hygiene to the point of turning off an adblocker and knowing when it's safe to do so-- they probably should stick to brick and mortar banking. I do not at all agree that we should banish people unable to navigate adblocking from the Internet altogether. They are not 'lesser' people. They do not deserve to be denied access. They simply need more help than you and I. I definitely agree that we should tax all Internet businesses to pay for the libraries, library computers, and librarians that help one-third of American citizens operate the Internet safely.
    - crispyambulance 8y ago
      There’s a huge span of skill between, say, the typical HN contributor and a dementia-addled 80-year-old. But some of you are talking like that’s the only two skill levels of users in the world. Most adults are able to understand the basics of computer hygiene. It is not that hard to explain the what an adblocker does and how to use it to most people. The sad thing is browser makers aren’t willing to help out the people who really need it because doing so would impact clickbait revenue. Instead, that task is left to us. It’s not an ideal situation but have you seen what happens to PC’s in the hands of folks that don’t have a concept of computer hygiene?
- danShumway 8y ago
  A non-expert also can't locate and avoid phishing ads on sketchy sites. Even ignoring the performance/UX improvements entirely, I would still argue that for most non-technical users, ad-blockers are a strong net benefit. Very, very few sites will break, and even those downsides are vastly outweighed by the security gains. Imagine if this was the early Windows XP days, and someone was saying, "don't install virus protection or anti-malware on a Windows box, because some programs will be falsely flagged." Yes, sometimes safety valves trigger prematurely or block things they're not supposed to. That doesn't mean inexperienced electricians should remove all of their fuse protectors. And the risks of breakage here are honestly really minimal. If a student taking an online courseware site notices breakage, 9/10 times they'll call up the person that set up their program and ask for help, and then that person will explain over the phone how to whitelist that one specific site. Or worst case scenario they'll file a support ticket and the support person will explain how to do that. They're not going to just say, "well, I guess I fail" and drop out of school. DO be that expert. We should be practicing an ounce of protection. It is far easier to prevent viruses and phishing attacks for a nontechnical user than it is to recover from them. I firmly believe that anyone who can't be taught how to disable an adblocker should not be allowed to browse the web without one.
  - floatingatoll 8y ago
    The example I provided, about school courseware and a browser damaged by an expert and the student dropping the class, wasn't a made-up example.
    - danShumway 8y ago
      I have to follow up on this though -- Did the person in question just not have your phone number or email? Disabling uBlock Origin is literally two clicks. I understand someone not knowing how to do that -- I don't understand not being able to explain how to do it. And even in the crazy case where someone drops a course, that's still a preferable scenario to me over helping an Uncle remove a keylogger because a big scary box told him to click it on it. When I set up a computer for someone I either need to teach them how to whitelist a site, or I need to teach them Internet security, which is not always possible to do. I think it's irresponsible to put someone online who's not an expert without at least some protection to keep them safe.
- feanaro 8y ago
  I think you're being a tad dramatic if we are talking about uBlock Origin. If configured correctly, with the blocklists selected erring a bit on the conservative side, the benefits dramatically outweigh the drawbacks even for the most basic of users. I am that expert for a very large number of non-expert users. I taught them how to troubleshoot it in case something goes wrong (worst case: click the button to disable it on this page). I've asked them about their experience. There was no breakage and no complaints whatsoever. I would say it definitely passes the wife test.
- andrepd 8y ago
  >An ad-blocker like uOrigin can break online courseware and banking sites. If you install it on a student’s machine, and the ad block you consider ‘mandatory’ damages their experience, they might decide to drop (or fail) their course if they can’t figure out how to undo the damage you’ve done to their browser. Click ublock logo > click big obvious shutdown symbol. That's it.
  - alleyshack 8y ago
    This requires a lot of things which aren't obvious: 1) the person to realize the site is broken because of something on their end (as opposed to the site being broken because of something "on the internet") 2) the person to realize the cause of the breakage is ublock 3) the person to be able to find the ublock logo (not always obvious; some browsers hide extensions, sometimes people don't know where to look, sometimes they don't know "the little red shield" == "the ad blocker causing my problems") 4) the person to understand what the big power symbol does - if you only click the ublock logo, it's not obvious to a layperson that the power symbol is a button 5) the person to be comfortable clicking the button, and not more afraid of "breaking the internet" than they are desiring to fix the issue I do informal tech support for family members who could not get past steps 1 or 2, even if I've explained it to them. We who spend our lives on the Internet take a lot of the things we grok about it for granted, but someone who only occasionally uses a computer won't necessarily have the foundation to make the connections we do when faced with a problem like this.
    - floatingatoll 8y ago
      At multiple paying day jobs with HN-class expert technical users, I have found that 2) is precisely correct here: it simply doesn't occur to them that [non-advertising non-tracking site feature] could be breaking because of [advertising tracking blocker]. The most recent instance of this was Tuesday.

floatingatoll 8y ago

The guide does not offer the nuance you suggest, and instead follows the standard approach of such guides, recommending all possible steps without any criteria by which to filter them for usability or other. An ad-blocker like uOrigin can break online courseware and banking sites. If you install it on a student’s machine, and the ad block you consider ‘mandatory’ damages their experience, they might decide to drop (or fail) their course if they can’t figure out how to undo the damage you’ve done to their browser. Non-experts cannot repair the issues caused by experts inflicting these steps on their computers. Don’t be that expert.

the_duke 8y ago
I have noticed very, very few essential websites (like banking, University, Government sites, ...) breaking when using the standard lists of uBlock origin. Sites that break are almost always fishy. But I have started telling people that, when a site is not working properly, they may be able to fix it by clicking the shield button and then the big power button to turn the blocker off. That's usually enough. You are being a bit over-dramatic here I think. Most younger people are smart enough to try a different approach (eg using the phone or tablet instead).
- floatingatoll 8y ago
  I’ve been doing personal computer support for family and friends since the 90s. My views derive from my experiences supporting them. I spent forty-five minutes teaching someone to press the home button on an iPad last year. You greatly overestimate the lower bounds of competence of unskilled folks.
  - bloopernova 8y ago
    And the lower bounds of confidence too. A lot of people I've encountered are quite scared of computers, and experience a significant amount of anxiety when asked to use a computer in front of someone. What to us is as natural as reaching for something, is to them a task to be feared, anticipated with dread, embarrassment and shame. All IT related people should spend time with such folks, as you did. It would definitely help the industry if we were all a lot more open and sympathetic to people who are mystified, scared, or angered by computers and software.
  - the_duke 8y ago
    You do bring up an interesting point. I could never teach my grandmother what an ad blocker is and how to disable it if a site is not working. That would be far beyond her reach. Some basic Youtube browsing and email reading/writing is the peak for her. I was mostly commenting on the <=45 crowd where some basic computer literacy is usually there and can be beefed up, in my experience. Yet our older generations are probably the ones that would need an ad blocker the most to prevent them from ending up on fishing/scamming sites etc.
crispyambulance 8y ago
To be complete, yes, I do instruct the users how to turn off ublock origin. Most users, even those in my extended family, are able to understand the concept of ad-blocking as well as turning it on and off when someone takes the time and attention to explain it to them. Ublock is especially user-friendly for all the most basic use-cases. They're better off with adblocking, seriously. No one is actually going to fail an online course because of adblocking. If someone who does online banking can't handle the most basic concepts of computer hygiene to the point of turning off an adblocker and knowing when it's safe to do so-- they probably should stick to brick and mortar banking. As bad as some web-browsing inconveniences are, these pale in comparison to having a computer beset with malware.
- floatingatoll 8y ago
  > If someone who does online banking can't handle the most basic concepts of computer hygiene to the point of turning off an adblocker and knowing when it's safe to do so-- they probably should stick to brick and mortar banking. I do not at all agree that we should banish people unable to navigate adblocking from the Internet altogether. They are not 'lesser' people. They do not deserve to be denied access. They simply need more help than you and I. I definitely agree that we should tax all Internet businesses to pay for the libraries, library computers, and librarians that help one-third of American citizens operate the Internet safely.
  - crispyambulance 8y ago
    There’s a huge span of skill between, say, the typical HN contributor and a dementia-addled 80-year-old. But some of you are talking like that’s the only two skill levels of users in the world. Most adults are able to understand the basics of computer hygiene. It is not that hard to explain the what an adblocker does and how to use it to most people. The sad thing is browser makers aren’t willing to help out the people who really need it because doing so would impact clickbait revenue. Instead, that task is left to us. It’s not an ideal situation but have you seen what happens to PC’s in the hands of folks that don’t have a concept of computer hygiene?
danShumway 8y ago
A non-expert also can't locate and avoid phishing ads on sketchy sites. Even ignoring the performance/UX improvements entirely, I would still argue that for most non-technical users, ad-blockers are a strong net benefit. Very, very few sites will break, and even those downsides are vastly outweighed by the security gains. Imagine if this was the early Windows XP days, and someone was saying, "don't install virus protection or anti-malware on a Windows box, because some programs will be falsely flagged." Yes, sometimes safety valves trigger prematurely or block things they're not supposed to. That doesn't mean inexperienced electricians should remove all of their fuse protectors. And the risks of breakage here are honestly really minimal. If a student taking an online courseware site notices breakage, 9/10 times they'll call up the person that set up their program and ask for help, and then that person will explain over the phone how to whitelist that one specific site. Or worst case scenario they'll file a support ticket and the support person will explain how to do that. They're not going to just say, "well, I guess I fail" and drop out of school. DO be that expert. We should be practicing an ounce of protection. It is far easier to prevent viruses and phishing attacks for a nontechnical user than it is to recover from them. I firmly believe that anyone who can't be taught how to disable an adblocker should not be allowed to browse the web without one.
- floatingatoll 8y ago
  The example I provided, about school courseware and a browser damaged by an expert and the student dropping the class, wasn't a made-up example.
  - danShumway 8y ago
    I have to follow up on this though -- Did the person in question just not have your phone number or email? Disabling uBlock Origin is literally two clicks. I understand someone not knowing how to do that -- I don't understand not being able to explain how to do it. And even in the crazy case where someone drops a course, that's still a preferable scenario to me over helping an Uncle remove a keylogger because a big scary box told him to click it on it. When I set up a computer for someone I either need to teach them how to whitelist a site, or I need to teach them Internet security, which is not always possible to do. I think it's irresponsible to put someone online who's not an expert without at least some protection to keep them safe.
feanaro 8y ago
I think you're being a tad dramatic if we are talking about uBlock Origin. If configured correctly, with the blocklists selected erring a bit on the conservative side, the benefits dramatically outweigh the drawbacks even for the most basic of users. I am that expert for a very large number of non-expert users. I taught them how to troubleshoot it in case something goes wrong (worst case: click the button to disable it on this page). I've asked them about their experience. There was no breakage and no complaints whatsoever. I would say it definitely passes the wife test.
andrepd 8y ago
>An ad-blocker like uOrigin can break online courseware and banking sites. If you install it on a student’s machine, and the ad block you consider ‘mandatory’ damages their experience, they might decide to drop (or fail) their course if they can’t figure out how to undo the damage you’ve done to their browser. Click ublock logo > click big obvious shutdown symbol. That's it.
- alleyshack 8y ago
  This requires a lot of things which aren't obvious: 1) the person to realize the site is broken because of something on their end (as opposed to the site being broken because of something "on the internet") 2) the person to realize the cause of the breakage is ublock 3) the person to be able to find the ublock logo (not always obvious; some browsers hide extensions, sometimes people don't know where to look, sometimes they don't know "the little red shield" == "the ad blocker causing my problems") 4) the person to understand what the big power symbol does - if you only click the ublock logo, it's not obvious to a layperson that the power symbol is a button 5) the person to be comfortable clicking the button, and not more afraid of "breaking the internet" than they are desiring to fix the issue I do informal tech support for family members who could not get past steps 1 or 2, even if I've explained it to them. We who spend our lives on the Internet take a lot of the things we grok about it for granted, but someone who only occasionally uses a computer won't necessarily have the foundation to make the connections we do when faced with a problem like this.
  - floatingatoll 8y ago
    At multiple paying day jobs with HN-class expert technical users, I have found that 2) is precisely correct here: it simply doesn't occur to them that [non-advertising non-tracking site feature] could be breaking because of [advertising tracking blocker]. The most recent instance of this was Tuesday.