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Most domains are also not the "finish the job by next Thursday or the company folds" type either. You're going to have to pay back that technical debt someday,

by dTal 8y ago

Most domains are also not the "finish the job by next Thursday or the company folds" type either. You're going to have to pay back that technical debt someday, with interest - why not save time and do it right the first time? (Typical SV answer: you're only thinking of the short term because you're trying to get investment and you plan to exit stage left with a fat packet long before the technical debt rears its ugly head, leaving somebody else to clean up the mess. But this is not how most engineering is done in the real world.)

coldtea 8y ago
>Most domains are also not the "finish the job by next Thursday or the company folds" type either. Even in those that aren't, the managerial "finish the job by next Thursday or you're fired" is equally good motivator to not "save time and do it right the first time".
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Apparently not paying for lack of quality and compensatory clauses seems to be a thing only in consulting.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    You'd be surprised. There are tons of stories of incompetent self-important consultants, coming in with big ideas, and getting paid mucho dinero per day for what amounts to nothing (if not actively bad advice). I've work with some. And don't get me started on the "specialist" consultants, whose job is to push some monstrosity, like IBM's stack, or SAP, or whatever, until it kinda fits the problem domain, and in the process sell even more crap from their vendor. Some fun stuff (haven't checked them all, but most stuff I've read from WTF across the years was hilarious, if not true to life): https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Consulting_The_Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Consulting_The_Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Invasion-of-the-Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Invasion-of-the-Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/consultant-designed-success https://thedailywtf.com/articles/consultant-designed-success (And inversely, there are companies whose culture is all about good code and craftsmanship. But they usually don't get very far: if they don't fold, they're still niche shops. Perhaps Viaweb was one such).
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      I am pretty aware of that and was already expecting such a reply from you. The point was that while for consultancy projects, customers do refuse to pay for what is considered a bad piece of work, for other kinds of software delivery, with exception of app stores, that never happens. It is very interesting experience to take part in a customer meeting, which isn't very pleased how things are going, regardless of the outcome. I also have my share of being part of such teams, similar to your examples, yet that doesn't mean one should stop pushing for quality as much quixotic endeavour as it might seem.

by dTal 8y ago

coldtea 8y ago

>Most domains are also not the "finish the job by next Thursday or the company folds" type either. Even in those that aren't, the managerial "finish the job by next Thursday or you're fired" is equally good motivator to not "save time and do it right the first time".

pjmlp 8y ago
Apparently not paying for lack of quality and compensatory clauses seems to be a thing only in consulting.
- coldtea 8y ago
  You'd be surprised. There are tons of stories of incompetent self-important consultants, coming in with big ideas, and getting paid mucho dinero per day for what amounts to nothing (if not actively bad advice). I've work with some. And don't get me started on the "specialist" consultants, whose job is to push some monstrosity, like IBM's stack, or SAP, or whatever, until it kinda fits the problem domain, and in the process sell even more crap from their vendor. Some fun stuff (haven't checked them all, but most stuff I've read from WTF across the years was hilarious, if not true to life): https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Consulting_The_Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Consulting_The_Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Invasion-of-the-Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/Invasion-of-the-Consultants https://thedailywtf.com/articles/consultant-designed-success https://thedailywtf.com/articles/consultant-designed-success (And inversely, there are companies whose culture is all about good code and craftsmanship. But they usually don't get very far: if they don't fold, they're still niche shops. Perhaps Viaweb was one such).
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I am pretty aware of that and was already expecting such a reply from you. The point was that while for consultancy projects, customers do refuse to pay for what is considered a bad piece of work, for other kinds of software delivery, with exception of app stores, that never happens. It is very interesting experience to take part in a customer meeting, which isn't very pleased how things are going, regardless of the outcome. I also have my share of being part of such teams, similar to your examples, yet that doesn't mean one should stop pushing for quality as much quixotic endeavour as it might seem.