5 ms·

It won't and it can't. Rather it can at the cost of ~20 trillion dollars (23GWh [1] at 900 million [0] for GWh for the Tesla battery). You need all that energy

by antt 8y ago

It won't and it can't. Rather it can at the cost of ~20 trillion dollars (23GWh [1] at 900 million [0] for GWh for the Tesla battery). You need all that energy storage for when it's not sunny (like at night) and not windy and when you're in the middle of a decade long drought [2]. All things Australia is likely to get in the next 15 years. If you want power without CO2 you either go nuclear or you expect 90% of your grid to go offline about monthly. [0] https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-revealed-two-years-after-blackout/10310680 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-09-27/tesla-battery-cost-re... $90 millio for 100 MWh [1] https://www.aemo.com.au/ https://www.aemo.com.au/ current total demand ~23 GWh. [2] https://opennem.org.au/#/all-regions https://opennem.org.au/#/all-regions

mikeash 8y ago
What does it mean for demand to be 23GWh? Over what time period? I didn’t spot that number in the link.
- antt 8y ago
  The total demand for the last 30 minutes, you sum up all the individual state markets, minus WA which is on not connected to that grid.
  - mikeash 8y ago
    So that’s another way of saying 46GW?
    - antt 8y ago
      Depends. The one hot day this year Victoria and South Australia has large load shedding events so we don't know what peak demand looks like currently. But probably closer to 60GWh if you don't shut down industrial capacity on a 40C day.
      - Jedd 8y ago
        This would be a day that solar power would - if you'll excuse the expression - really shine, right?
        Qwertious 8y ago
        Nah, heat reduces PV effectiveness. Ideally you want a sunny cold day.
        Jedd 8y ago
        You're assuming solar exclusively means PVC.
      - mikeash 8y ago
        That seems like a separate issue? I’m just trying to figure out what that demand number means in terms of physical units.
hutzlibu 8y ago
At night demand is lower, so even ignoring all the storage technologies aside from expensive batteries, there are things like gas power plants, who can start and stop quickly and likely provide the needed energy. And at daytime ... you do have sun in australia, not like here in germany. And a few more PHES (water reservoir pump storage) probably come in handy with drought anyway
- antt 8y ago
  1). The number is the current demand, it's 12am here. 2). Australia is larger than the EU. That there's sunshine in North Queensland is all well and good but you need power in Victoria and South Australia. The links between the states are already saturated (and absolutely tiny). 3). Can you name me one river in Australia that isn't already damed passed the point of viability? The Murry-Darling flows backwards about as often as forwards these days.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    The idea is not, that you can go all renewable by tomorrow, but that you can work towards it. So yes, you probably will have to invest in the energy grid. And the lack of suitable rivers is a problem for conventional pump power plants, but there are concepts to do the same with artifical lakes on different heights. Then there is hydrogen. Energy costly to create, but the idea is, that solar energy is dirt cheap, once you have the plants. And a tons of other potential technology. So again, yes. Not really all market ready and exactly doable by tomorrow, but will be soon. Sooner the more it gets invested into it, because there are no laws of physics hindering it. Only lack of momentum due to the lazyness because of cheap fossil energy for "free"
mojomark 8y ago
> It won't and it can't. Rather it can at the cost of ~20 trillion dollars (23GWh [1] at 900 million [0] for GWh for the Tesla battery). Sorry, this statement is incomplete and as a result, leads to an incorrect conclusion. Tesla (and other Li-ion batteries) are suitable for certain applications (e.g., powering cars, power tools, phones), but bulk energy storage is not one of them. Saying you want to store grid-scale power with tesla batteries is analogous to saying you want to replace the lights in a football stadium with thousands of mobile phone screens. You can do it, but screens are good at displaying image content to single users and not meant for general illumination, and would cost prohibitive from an acquisition standpoint not to mention the ancillary cost issues (e.g. lifetime, replacement). All you need to do is find an energy storage technology that is appropriate, and the solution suddenly becomes viable. Molten Salt storage, for example, is 33 times cheaper than Li-ion storage. Other much more appropruate mass energy storage options includes H2 production, or 'simply' pumping water upstream of a hydroelectric plant. 1. https://www.solarthermalworld.org/content/molten-salt-storage-33-times-cheaper-lithium-ion-batteries https://www.solarthermalworld.org/content/molten-salt-storag...
- Sabinus 8y ago
  Why is this downvoted? He's even got a source.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by antt 8y ago

mikeash 8y ago

What does it mean for demand to be 23GWh? Over what time period? I didn’t spot that number in the link.

antt 8y ago
The total demand for the last 30 minutes, you sum up all the individual state markets, minus WA which is on not connected to that grid.
- mikeash 8y ago
  So that’s another way of saying 46GW?
  - antt 8y ago
    Depends. The one hot day this year Victoria and South Australia has large load shedding events so we don't know what peak demand looks like currently. But probably closer to 60GWh if you don't shut down industrial capacity on a 40C day.
    - Jedd 8y ago
      This would be a day that solar power would - if you'll excuse the expression - really shine, right?
      - Qwertious 8y ago
        Nah, heat reduces PV effectiveness. Ideally you want a sunny cold day.
        Jedd 8y ago
        You're assuming solar exclusively means PVC.
    - mikeash 8y ago
      That seems like a separate issue? I’m just trying to figure out what that demand number means in terms of physical units.

hutzlibu 8y ago

At night demand is lower, so even ignoring all the storage technologies aside from expensive batteries, there are things like gas power plants, who can start and stop quickly and likely provide the needed energy. And at daytime ... you do have sun in australia, not like here in germany. And a few more PHES (water reservoir pump storage) probably come in handy with drought anyway

antt 8y ago
1). The number is the current demand, it's 12am here. 2). Australia is larger than the EU. That there's sunshine in North Queensland is all well and good but you need power in Victoria and South Australia. The links between the states are already saturated (and absolutely tiny). 3). Can you name me one river in Australia that isn't already damed passed the point of viability? The Murry-Darling flows backwards about as often as forwards these days.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  The idea is not, that you can go all renewable by tomorrow, but that you can work towards it. So yes, you probably will have to invest in the energy grid. And the lack of suitable rivers is a problem for conventional pump power plants, but there are concepts to do the same with artifical lakes on different heights. Then there is hydrogen. Energy costly to create, but the idea is, that solar energy is dirt cheap, once you have the plants. And a tons of other potential technology. So again, yes. Not really all market ready and exactly doable by tomorrow, but will be soon. Sooner the more it gets invested into it, because there are no laws of physics hindering it. Only lack of momentum due to the lazyness because of cheap fossil energy for "free"

mojomark 8y ago

> It won't and it can't. Rather it can at the cost of ~20 trillion dollars (23GWh [1] at 900 million [0] for GWh for the Tesla battery). Sorry, this statement is incomplete and as a result, leads to an incorrect conclusion. Tesla (and other Li-ion batteries) are suitable for certain applications (e.g., powering cars, power tools, phones), but bulk energy storage is not one of them. Saying you want to store grid-scale power with tesla batteries is analogous to saying you want to replace the lights in a football stadium with thousands of mobile phone screens. You can do it, but screens are good at displaying image content to single users and not meant for general illumination, and would cost prohibitive from an acquisition standpoint not to mention the ancillary cost issues (e.g. lifetime, replacement). All you need to do is find an energy storage technology that is appropriate, and the solution suddenly becomes viable. Molten Salt storage, for example, is 33 times cheaper than Li-ion storage. Other much more appropruate mass energy storage options includes H2 production, or 'simply' pumping water upstream of a hydroelectric plant. 1. https://www.solarthermalworld.org/content/molten-salt-storage-33-times-cheaper-lithium-ion-batteries https://www.solarthermalworld.org/content/molten-salt-storag...

Sabinus 8y ago
Why is this downvoted? He's even got a source.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]