5 ms·

Good, it's ridiculous in Amsterdam right now with investors buying houses left and right just to rent them out. A city of renters is a soulless city; less peop

Good, it's ridiculous in Amsterdam right now with investors buying houses left and right just to rent them out. A city of renters is a soulless city; less people are long-term invested and no one really buys into the community they live in.

peteretep 8y ago
> A city of renters is a soulless city I am beyond skeptical on this point. The young and dynamic people responsible for a city’s soul generally can’t afford to buy (I would guess, I have no data)
- hnarn 8y ago
  You wouldn't be skeptical if you spent an extended period of time in a city mostly occupied by these "young and dynamic people". Hong Kong is a good example.
- cabaalis 8y ago
  Ouch. You and I may well disagree about the meaning of soul!
  - S_A_P 8y ago
    Agreed, I always equate the soul of a city/neighborhood to having multi generational culture. Cleaning up Brooklyn and putting a bunch of hipsters there didnt give it soul...
- bertil 8y ago
  One possible consequence of limiting the market is that it could lower the price of buying real estate. Hopefully, that should make it accessible to younger buyers.
  - michaelcampbell 8y ago
    Are there any occurrences of such a price control doing anything but worse unintended consequences?
    - bertil 8y ago
      There has been similar systems in place in France and Sweden, and probably other European countries. Usually, they are targetting financing system: you can borrow money at a rebated cost if you do not rent it for a period of five to ten years. The intended consequences are more people being able to afford a house and home ownership has increased with most policies that I can think of. There are some consequences: rental contracts are very hard to find in Stockholm for instance, but those hardly seem unintended.
  - rocqua 8y ago
    People need housing, this limits renting, which affects the supply of housing. In the end, when supply goes down, it usually doesn't make something more attainable. Thats only a first order approximation, but it seems plausible to me.
- michaelt 8y ago
  It depends what part of "a city's soul" you choose to look at; and how stable your city's long term rental market is. The local bands, and dances full of pretty single people? Mostly young people have the time and inclination for that, and they're less likely to be homeowners as you say. But the volunteer coach of the children's football team, or the people who organise the annual artists' open studio? You can't take those sorts of responsibilities if you're moving away in a year or two, you'd almost be handing it over to someone else before you'd finished having it handed over to you! Of course, hypothetically there's no reason a person renting a house can't rent it for 5 years or more - just in my country, that's rarely how it works out.
  - Scarblac 8y ago
    With 10 year and higher waiting lists for affordable renting in the Netherlands, many people stay in their rental home for their entire working life once they've finally got one.
silverstrike 8y ago
Evidence to support this? I have never found this to be true - heavily owner-occupied towns tend to be sleepy suburbs whereas the economic powerhouses of city centers are almost always very renter-heavy.
- ModernMech 8y ago
  Cities are renter heavy because housing is more expensive.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    And because, especially these days, (at least some) cities disproportionately attract single people who mostly rent and then buy a house in the suburbs when they start a family.
- joe_fishfish 8y ago
  IMO you have this backwards. It's much easier to get a mortgage to buy property in sleepy suburbs, so people can and do buy houses there to live in them, then have to commute to work. It's almost impossible for most people working in soulful / desirable / economic powerhouse locations to get a mortgage on a property there, so you see lots of wealthy investors take up the properties there and rent-seek to make themselves even richer. That's before we even mention the children factor.
  - coredog64 8y ago
    Rent-seeking as an economic term doesn’t just mean that someone buys property with the intention of renting it out. It also has the requirement that the “rent seeker” then employs a social or political power structure to force users/customers into renting with no benefit. I’m not thrilled about renting, but neither do I want to gamble on purchasing housing in an expensive market when I may have to leave my job or even the state. My landlord is taking that risk with her capital and therefore deserves to be rewarded for it.
VBprogrammer 8y ago
I think it can work fine so long as there are sufficient protections for renters. Rent control, long term contracts etc. I understand that this is the case in Germany. Unfortunately this works by making property less attractive to investors, who are the people with a large amount of capital, who typically are those people who have influence over the political classes...
- ck425 8y ago
  This. Scotland recently introduced indefinite tenancies and I'm extremely interested as a young professional and investor to see the impact it has long term. Funnily enough Corbyn wants to introduce it in England and everyone is up in arms. They keep comparing it to the German market forgetting that it's already a thing in Scotland.
  - VBprogrammer 8y ago
    As a Scot myself, living in London, I've more than once longed for the regulations that we had in Scotland. Even simple things like not being able to charge random fees makes it much easier to compare two or more properties on level terms.
    - ck425 8y ago
      You poor soul, come home! Joking aside it's still too early to see the effects of the new tenancy. I suspect it'll make properties harder to get for less attractive tenants and that there'll need to be incentives for landlords to take on such tenants in future. Probably still a net positive but we'll see.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jeffbax 8y ago
  "Rent control is the only thing more effective at destroying a city than bombing"
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
YorkshireSeason 8y ago
Vienna, a city that regularly tops the list of the world's most livable cities [1], has 80% rental rate [2]. Most German cities are dominated by rental, e.g. Berlin. [1] https://mobilityexchange.mercer.com/Insights/quality-of-living-rankings https://mobilityexchange.mercer.com/Insights/quality-of-livi... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/12/vienna-housing-policy-uk-rent-controls https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/12/vienna-housi...
- wukerplank 8y ago
  A huge chunk of the Viennese flats are publicly owned.[1] I think it's very hard to replicate for other cities. It's the result of decades of social democratic governance. Two things they do really well: Keeping rent prices low by "dumping" and preventing ghettoisation by creating affordable housing in every district, not just some crappy areas. [1] http://milwaukeeclt.org/2017/07/10/how-vienna-ensures-affordable-housing-with-an-extremely-complicated-housing-system/ http://milwaukeeclt.org/2017/07/10/how-vienna-ensures-afford...
jeffbax 8y ago
This is nonsense. I've rented for 10 years now and I love my city just as much as anyone. Buying doesn't really make a ton of sense at these prices so I don't, but I don't see how I am less engaged than an owner. Hell, I actually go to city hall and write my council regularly…
tathougies 8y ago
> A city of renters is a soulless city A city of renters is a city of dynamic ideas, young people, and social movement.

peteretep 8y ago

> A city of renters is a soulless city I am beyond skeptical on this point. The young and dynamic people responsible for a city’s soul generally can’t afford to buy (I would guess, I have no data)

hnarn 8y ago
You wouldn't be skeptical if you spent an extended period of time in a city mostly occupied by these "young and dynamic people". Hong Kong is a good example.
cabaalis 8y ago
Ouch. You and I may well disagree about the meaning of soul!
- S_A_P 8y ago
  Agreed, I always equate the soul of a city/neighborhood to having multi generational culture. Cleaning up Brooklyn and putting a bunch of hipsters there didnt give it soul...
bertil 8y ago
One possible consequence of limiting the market is that it could lower the price of buying real estate. Hopefully, that should make it accessible to younger buyers.
- michaelcampbell 8y ago
  Are there any occurrences of such a price control doing anything but worse unintended consequences?
  - bertil 8y ago
    There has been similar systems in place in France and Sweden, and probably other European countries. Usually, they are targetting financing system: you can borrow money at a rebated cost if you do not rent it for a period of five to ten years. The intended consequences are more people being able to afford a house and home ownership has increased with most policies that I can think of. There are some consequences: rental contracts are very hard to find in Stockholm for instance, but those hardly seem unintended.
- rocqua 8y ago
  People need housing, this limits renting, which affects the supply of housing. In the end, when supply goes down, it usually doesn't make something more attainable. Thats only a first order approximation, but it seems plausible to me.
michaelt 8y ago
It depends what part of "a city's soul" you choose to look at; and how stable your city's long term rental market is. The local bands, and dances full of pretty single people? Mostly young people have the time and inclination for that, and they're less likely to be homeowners as you say. But the volunteer coach of the children's football team, or the people who organise the annual artists' open studio? You can't take those sorts of responsibilities if you're moving away in a year or two, you'd almost be handing it over to someone else before you'd finished having it handed over to you! Of course, hypothetically there's no reason a person renting a house can't rent it for 5 years or more - just in my country, that's rarely how it works out.
- Scarblac 8y ago
  With 10 year and higher waiting lists for affordable renting in the Netherlands, many people stay in their rental home for their entire working life once they've finally got one.

silverstrike 8y ago

Evidence to support this? I have never found this to be true - heavily owner-occupied towns tend to be sleepy suburbs whereas the economic powerhouses of city centers are almost always very renter-heavy.

ModernMech 8y ago
Cities are renter heavy because housing is more expensive.
- ghaff 8y ago
  And because, especially these days, (at least some) cities disproportionately attract single people who mostly rent and then buy a house in the suburbs when they start a family.
joe_fishfish 8y ago
IMO you have this backwards. It's much easier to get a mortgage to buy property in sleepy suburbs, so people can and do buy houses there to live in them, then have to commute to work. It's almost impossible for most people working in soulful / desirable / economic powerhouse locations to get a mortgage on a property there, so you see lots of wealthy investors take up the properties there and rent-seek to make themselves even richer. That's before we even mention the children factor.
- coredog64 8y ago
  Rent-seeking as an economic term doesn’t just mean that someone buys property with the intention of renting it out. It also has the requirement that the “rent seeker” then employs a social or political power structure to force users/customers into renting with no benefit. I’m not thrilled about renting, but neither do I want to gamble on purchasing housing in an expensive market when I may have to leave my job or even the state. My landlord is taking that risk with her capital and therefore deserves to be rewarded for it.

VBprogrammer 8y ago

I think it can work fine so long as there are sufficient protections for renters. Rent control, long term contracts etc. I understand that this is the case in Germany. Unfortunately this works by making property less attractive to investors, who are the people with a large amount of capital, who typically are those people who have influence over the political classes...

ck425 8y ago
This. Scotland recently introduced indefinite tenancies and I'm extremely interested as a young professional and investor to see the impact it has long term. Funnily enough Corbyn wants to introduce it in England and everyone is up in arms. They keep comparing it to the German market forgetting that it's already a thing in Scotland.
- VBprogrammer 8y ago
  As a Scot myself, living in London, I've more than once longed for the regulations that we had in Scotland. Even simple things like not being able to charge random fees makes it much easier to compare two or more properties on level terms.
  - ck425 8y ago
    You poor soul, come home! Joking aside it's still too early to see the effects of the new tenancy. I suspect it'll make properties harder to get for less attractive tenants and that there'll need to be incentives for landlords to take on such tenants in future. Probably still a net positive but we'll see.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
jeffbax 8y ago
"Rent control is the only thing more effective at destroying a city than bombing"

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

YorkshireSeason 8y ago

Vienna, a city that regularly tops the list of the world's most livable cities [1], has 80% rental rate [2]. Most German cities are dominated by rental, e.g. Berlin. [1] https://mobilityexchange.mercer.com/Insights/quality-of-living-rankings https://mobilityexchange.mercer.com/Insights/quality-of-livi... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/12/vienna-housing-policy-uk-rent-controls https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/dec/12/vienna-housi...

wukerplank 8y ago
A huge chunk of the Viennese flats are publicly owned.[1] I think it's very hard to replicate for other cities. It's the result of decades of social democratic governance. Two things they do really well: Keeping rent prices low by "dumping" and preventing ghettoisation by creating affordable housing in every district, not just some crappy areas. [1] http://milwaukeeclt.org/2017/07/10/how-vienna-ensures-affordable-housing-with-an-extremely-complicated-housing-system/ http://milwaukeeclt.org/2017/07/10/how-vienna-ensures-afford...

jeffbax 8y ago

This is nonsense. I've rented for 10 years now and I love my city just as much as anyone. Buying doesn't really make a ton of sense at these prices so I don't, but I don't see how I am less engaged than an owner. Hell, I actually go to city hall and write my council regularly…

tathougies 8y ago

> A city of renters is a soulless city A city of renters is a city of dynamic ideas, young people, and social movement.