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If someone does not vote, when there was ample opportunity to do so, then they implicitly are accepting the outcome - whichever way it goes. This actually shou

If someone does not vote, when there was ample opportunity to do so, then they implicitly are accepting the outcome - whichever way it goes. This actually should read "Brexit - The will of the 17m + 50m who are okay with this" This would have read the same if the result had gone the other way: "Remain - The will of the Xm + 50m who are okay with this" At the end of the day, there was a vote and more people wanted Brexit, than Remain. A democratic process and result.

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago
Yes I agree, if you don't vote (having voted in every election the last 30y and would never not vote) you're ok with the result and can't complain, but from a Remainer standpoint the framing would be "50M didn't vote for Brexit" - then I'd think their arguing would be easier. Having watched many Commons discussions, it basically always ends with "but the 17M".
- ben_w 8y ago
  The trouble with your first point is that UK democracy feels like this: * Vote winner — your fault, don’t get to complain * Vote loser/2nd party — you lost, suck it up, don’t get to complain * Vote 3rd party/spoiled ballot — you wasted your vote, don’t get to complain * Didn’t vote — you must be OK with any outcome, don’t get to complain * Found new party — how interesting, let’s invite you on TV even if you got 249 votes total (Lord Buckethead), but anyone who voted for you still threw away their vote * Left country — who cares, certainly not the council who is supposed to send you a postal vote (happened to a friend of mine in the EU referendum, would’ve voted remain)
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Yes. In many ways Brexit is one of those "cascade failures" we read about on COMP.RISKS; democracy has been malfunctioning for a long time, every effort to fix it has been blocked, and now we have the consequences.
ipsi 8y ago
Well, it's more like "The will of the 17.4M + 13M who were okay with it", with the other 21.5M unable to vote due to immigration status, age, failure to register, or other reasons.
- SeanDav 8y ago
  If it had gone the other way, all these points would have been exactly the same - why would it be any more/less acceptable (from a democratic process point of view)?
  - isostatic 8y ago
    Normally major constitutional changes require supermajorities to pass
    - repolfx 8y ago
      Not in the UK. All constitutional referendums have used 50%+1 including the original remain/leave referendum that happened a few years after joining.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        I'm talking generally across the world, and not just referenda. > the original remain/leave referendum that happened a few years after joining That wasn't constitutional change. Nor was it binding. This referendum was also non-binding, it's right there in the act of parliament that authorized it. Of course once Parliament agreed to invoke article 50 the referendum became irrelevant. Parliament - specifically the Tories, Labour, DUP, UUP and UKIP mps who decided to take us out of the EU with no deal, not the referendum. 320 MPs can change the UK constitution (although there are some protections with the House of Lords), which is the anomaly globally.
rimliu 8y ago
We are having a lot of elections this year, so one meme floats around on FB: "Bad government is that happens when good people do not vote".
- danilocesar 8y ago
  I wish this is true, but I don't think it is. In my country we had incompetent and corrupted left-wing government for 13 years. Now we have corrupted and incompetent far right extremists. And voting is mandatory here.
eertami 8y ago
>A democratic process and result. Pull the other one. This isn't the BBC Have Your Say comments section. People won't just believe that because you've declared it so. Illegal data theft: https://twitter.com/Nealb2010/status/1059068463933743104 https://twitter.com/Nealb2010/status/1059068463933743104 Flagrant violations of electoral law: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/party-and-election-finance-to-keep/vote-leave-fined-and-referred-to-the-police-for-breaking-electoral-law https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/ele... - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-broke-electoral-law-and-british-democracy-is-shaken https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-... Blatant lies and disinformation on immigration: https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-referendum-topics/summary-of-vote-leave-misrepresentations-on-immigration.html https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-referendum-topics/summ... General lies: https://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-second-referendum-false-claims-eu-referendum-campaign-lies-fake-news-a8113381.html https://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-second-referendu... More lies: https://minutehack.com/opinions/lies-damn-lies-and-brexit https://minutehack.com/opinions/lies-damn-lies-and-brexit Further lies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBxWiRz6A9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBxWiRz6A9E External interference and disinformation: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-isnt-there-greater-outrage-about-russian-involvement-in-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-is...
- threeseed 8y ago
  Seriously anyone who thinks the Brexit referendum was democratic or fair is either ignorant or naive. And it's scandalous that the UK government hasn't properly invested everything that came out of the Cambridge Analytica scandal.
  - SeanDav 8y ago
    >> "Seriously anyone who thinks the Brexit referendum was democratic or fair is either ignorant or naive." You may have a point about the fairness - the Government did pump in 9.3 million GBP to push the Pro-Remain position, in the form of a Pro-Remain pamphlet to every household in the UK. This, arguably, was hardly fair as the Leave side could not hope to match that level of expenditure to air their position, yet the people still voted Leave - go figure.
AnaniasAnanas 8y ago
+ 700000 British citizens living for 15+ years in EU countries who were not allowed to vote https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-second-referendum-final-say-denied-vote-british-citizen-a8482411.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-second-referendu...
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
how many of the 50 M have not voted because they didn't understand what they were actually voting for? The hyperbole spread in campaign[1] was just surreal. You need informed discussions before calling for a referendum not the "feely hearts over minds" bullshit. Putting the question to the people, in a representative democracy, is a terrible idea. they should have known this after Boaty McBoatface already. In addition UK MSM has some of the most inflaming language in all the news in Europe (and even US). I have my news.google.com set to UK by default and I switch around to other region and languages to get a more complete picture. Every country has screamy headlines. But the UK tabloids (Express, Mirror and Daily) seem to be the absolute fucking worst. Even from just reading the headlines (and knowing that it's BS) fills me with more hate than any other country's news. And I wonder: if _I_ feel so incited by this, how do Brits feel who compared to me have actual skin in the game? [1] actually on both sides. The leave camp was infiltrated by the radical right and the left was controlled by people who were so arrogant that they'd called anyone a racist who disagreed. Those minorities who are at the fringe and work 16 hrs days (while still on the brink of homelessness) were thrown into the same pot as white-supremacists.
jlokier 8y ago
At the end of the day, about 3 million people, fully settled in the UK, were not allowed to vote on the one thing which greatly affected them and for many is wrecking their lives. That isn't due to apathy, and it isn't democracy either. To avoid duplication, the rest of my comment is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19451579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19451579

_Codemonkeyism 8y ago

Yes I agree, if you don't vote (having voted in every election the last 30y and would never not vote) you're ok with the result and can't complain, but from a Remainer standpoint the framing would be "50M didn't vote for Brexit" - then I'd think their arguing would be easier. Having watched many Commons discussions, it basically always ends with "but the 17M".

ben_w 8y ago
The trouble with your first point is that UK democracy feels like this: * Vote winner — your fault, don’t get to complain * Vote loser/2nd party — you lost, suck it up, don’t get to complain * Vote 3rd party/spoiled ballot — you wasted your vote, don’t get to complain * Didn’t vote — you must be OK with any outcome, don’t get to complain * Found new party — how interesting, let’s invite you on TV even if you got 249 votes total (Lord Buckethead), but anyone who voted for you still threw away their vote * Left country — who cares, certainly not the council who is supposed to send you a postal vote (happened to a friend of mine in the EU referendum, would’ve voted remain)
- pjc50 8y ago
  Yes. In many ways Brexit is one of those "cascade failures" we read about on COMP.RISKS; democracy has been malfunctioning for a long time, every effort to fix it has been blocked, and now we have the consequences.

ipsi 8y ago

Well, it's more like "The will of the 17.4M + 13M who were okay with it", with the other 21.5M unable to vote due to immigration status, age, failure to register, or other reasons.

SeanDav 8y ago
If it had gone the other way, all these points would have been exactly the same - why would it be any more/less acceptable (from a democratic process point of view)?
- isostatic 8y ago
  Normally major constitutional changes require supermajorities to pass
  - repolfx 8y ago
    Not in the UK. All constitutional referendums have used 50%+1 including the original remain/leave referendum that happened a few years after joining.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      I'm talking generally across the world, and not just referenda. > the original remain/leave referendum that happened a few years after joining That wasn't constitutional change. Nor was it binding. This referendum was also non-binding, it's right there in the act of parliament that authorized it. Of course once Parliament agreed to invoke article 50 the referendum became irrelevant. Parliament - specifically the Tories, Labour, DUP, UUP and UKIP mps who decided to take us out of the EU with no deal, not the referendum. 320 MPs can change the UK constitution (although there are some protections with the House of Lords), which is the anomaly globally.

rimliu 8y ago

We are having a lot of elections this year, so one meme floats around on FB: "Bad government is that happens when good people do not vote".

danilocesar 8y ago
I wish this is true, but I don't think it is. In my country we had incompetent and corrupted left-wing government for 13 years. Now we have corrupted and incompetent far right extremists. And voting is mandatory here.

eertami 8y ago

>A democratic process and result. Pull the other one. This isn't the BBC Have Your Say comments section. People won't just believe that because you've declared it so. Illegal data theft: https://twitter.com/Nealb2010/status/1059068463933743104 https://twitter.com/Nealb2010/status/1059068463933743104 Flagrant violations of electoral law: https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/party-and-election-finance-to-keep/vote-leave-fined-and-referred-to-the-police-for-breaking-electoral-law https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/ele... - https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-broke-electoral-law-and-british-democracy-is-shaken https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/vote-leave-... Blatant lies and disinformation on immigration: https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-referendum-topics/summary-of-vote-leave-misrepresentations-on-immigration.html https://www.europeanlawmonitor.org/eu-referendum-topics/summ... General lies: https://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-second-referendum-false-claims-eu-referendum-campaign-lies-fake-news-a8113381.html https://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-second-referendu... More lies: https://minutehack.com/opinions/lies-damn-lies-and-brexit https://minutehack.com/opinions/lies-damn-lies-and-brexit Further lies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBxWiRz6A9E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBxWiRz6A9E External interference and disinformation: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-isnt-there-greater-outrage-about-russian-involvement-in-brexit https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/17/why-is...

threeseed 8y ago
Seriously anyone who thinks the Brexit referendum was democratic or fair is either ignorant or naive. And it's scandalous that the UK government hasn't properly invested everything that came out of the Cambridge Analytica scandal.
- SeanDav 8y ago
  >> "Seriously anyone who thinks the Brexit referendum was democratic or fair is either ignorant or naive." You may have a point about the fairness - the Government did pump in 9.3 million GBP to push the Pro-Remain position, in the form of a Pro-Remain pamphlet to every household in the UK. This, arguably, was hardly fair as the Leave side could not hope to match that level of expenditure to air their position, yet the people still voted Leave - go figure.

AnaniasAnanas 8y ago

+ 700000 British citizens living for 15+ years in EU countries who were not allowed to vote https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-second-referendum-final-say-denied-vote-british-citizen-a8482411.html https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-second-referendu...

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

how many of the 50 M have not voted because they didn't understand what they were actually voting for? The hyperbole spread in campaign[1] was just surreal. You need informed discussions before calling for a referendum not the "feely hearts over minds" bullshit. Putting the question to the people, in a representative democracy, is a terrible idea. they should have known this after Boaty McBoatface already. In addition UK MSM has some of the most inflaming language in all the news in Europe (and even US). I have my news.google.com set to UK by default and I switch around to other region and languages to get a more complete picture. Every country has screamy headlines. But the UK tabloids (Express, Mirror and Daily) seem to be the absolute fucking worst. Even from just reading the headlines (and knowing that it's BS) fills me with more hate than any other country's news. And I wonder: if _I_ feel so incited by this, how do Brits feel who compared to me have actual skin in the game? [1] actually on both sides. The leave camp was infiltrated by the radical right and the left was controlled by people who were so arrogant that they'd called anyone a racist who disagreed. Those minorities who are at the fringe and work 16 hrs days (while still on the brink of homelessness) were thrown into the same pot as white-supremacists.

jlokier 8y ago

At the end of the day, about 3 million people, fully settled in the UK, were not allowed to vote on the one thing which greatly affected them and for many is wrecking their lives. That isn't due to apathy, and it isn't democracy either. To avoid duplication, the rest of my comment is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19451579 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19451579