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While I think this petition will fall on deaf ears, you can't definitively say "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay", because not all of the

While I think this petition will fall on deaf ears, you can't definitively say "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay", because not all of the country voted in the referendum. Likewise, you could say: voting population of UK - 17.6m leave votes = people who didn't vote for Brexit Which is a huge majority and by that measure we shouldn't leave. I don't agree with that standpoint either, but both your viewpoint and that are misrepresentations.

coldtea 8y ago
>While I think this petition will fall on deaf ears, you can't definitively say "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay", because not all of the country voted in the referendum. Those that didn't vote either way, don't count, and shouldn't count. Percentages in elections are of active voters. Unless they were prevented from voting some way, their post-facto protests are meaningless. You can't have your cake (not give a toss about votes and not participate) and eat it (still have your opinion matter on voted topics) too
- colinramsay 8y ago
  I agree. But the statement "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay" is still false.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Taken literally it is indeed false. But in democracies the percentages who want this or that are counted through voting. So technically, it is correct.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      You ask 66 people today, About 16 will have voted to leave, 16 to remain, 11 who didn't vote but could have, and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens (even if they've lived here for 20 years and have British kids) (based on 1 million births and deaths a year, with about 2:1 ratio of people dying voting leave (in line with surveys that the older you were the more likely you were to vote and the more likely you were to vote leave) So about 24% would have voted to leave, 24% to remain, 17% didn't vote, 5% who can now vote but couldn't, and and 30% who still can't vote. The problem is that only the views of the 24% that voted to leave, and arguably the 41% that voted leave or didn't vote, seem to matter.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens Those are also not meant to vote, and rightly so. If you aren't a citizen (or aren't yet), you shouldn't decide of the country's matters. And if you're not an adult, you are considered not mature enough to have an opinion. That's part for the course in every democracy. In a democracy, "X of the the country wants Y" = "X of people qualified to vote && who voted, want Y". Even in the suffrage and civil rights era, nobody seriously complained that this doesn't include 10 year olds or non-citizens of a country. >The problem is that only the views of the 24% that voted to leave, and arguably the 41% that voted leave or didn't vote, seem to matter. That's not a problem, that's how democracy works. Want your opinion to matter? 1) Become an adult (e.g. just wait), 2) Become a citizen (if you're a foreigner) 3) DO vote (don't stay at home). Else the others who are will determine the result. The real problem is the hypocrisy. In the sense that all of the above wouldn't be considered a problem if the majority had voted to remain.
        isostatic 8y ago
        The problem in this case is that europe has spent 40 years welcoming people from elsewhere in europe. Doesn't matter where you're born, you have the right to live there and build a life. Imagine if Texas had a vote for independence, but only people born in Texas, and not those that moved from say Chicago, were allowed to vote. > In the sense that all of the above wouldn't be considered a problem if the majority had voted to remain. Except it would have been Farage was already calling for a second referendum before the results from the first came in. Rees Mogg and Owen Patterson were also big fans of two referendums, one to start the process, and one to confirm it 3 years later.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Except it would have been Farage was already calling for a second referendum before the results from the first came in. Sure, hypocrisy on both sides ensure it would be called a problem by the other side. But it wouldn't be called a problem from _the same_ people today calling it a problem. So, it's the kind that's only a problem when your side loses -- in which case, it can be discarded as the usual complaint of any losing side ever.
- megous 8y ago
  > Those that didn't vote either way, don't count, and shouldn't count. That's 3 years ago. There are ~3-4 mil. more young people that are now elligible for vote. Should they have no say?
  - lordlimecat 8y ago
    There are new voters who had no say in Trumps election. Thems just the breaks.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >That's 3 years ago. There are ~3-4 mil. more young people that are now elligible for vote. Should they have no say? They don't have a say in any other long-term-implementation matter which was voted before they became eligible for vote, so why would this be an exception?
    - megous 8y ago
      You just can't say what the country wants. You may only say what it wanted 3 years ago.
atzd4b 8y ago
More than half the people who cared enough to go and vote want to leave.
- Jarmsy 8y ago
  *wanted
jonplackett 8y ago
The point I was making is that the petition proves nothing that isn't already know - a lot of people don't want to leave. It's not even a march where people have to go somewhere to show how much they care. it's just a button click - which is an easier thing to do than go out and vote. so it's not worth reporting, it's meaningless.

coldtea 8y ago

>While I think this petition will fall on deaf ears, you can't definitively say "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay", because not all of the country voted in the referendum. Those that didn't vote either way, don't count, and shouldn't count. Percentages in elections are of active voters. Unless they were prevented from voting some way, their post-facto protests are meaningless. You can't have your cake (not give a toss about votes and not participate) and eat it (still have your opinion matter on voted topics) too

colinramsay 8y ago
I agree. But the statement "half the country wants to leave and half wants to stay" is still false.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Taken literally it is indeed false. But in democracies the percentages who want this or that are counted through voting. So technically, it is correct.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    You ask 66 people today, About 16 will have voted to leave, 16 to remain, 11 who didn't vote but could have, and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens (even if they've lived here for 20 years and have British kids) (based on 1 million births and deaths a year, with about 2:1 ratio of people dying voting leave (in line with surveys that the older you were the more likely you were to vote and the more likely you were to vote leave) So about 24% would have voted to leave, 24% to remain, 17% didn't vote, 5% who can now vote but couldn't, and and 30% who still can't vote. The problem is that only the views of the 24% that voted to leave, and arguably the 41% that voted leave or didn't vote, seem to matter.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >and 23 didn't get to vote because they were too young or aren't British citizens Those are also not meant to vote, and rightly so. If you aren't a citizen (or aren't yet), you shouldn't decide of the country's matters. And if you're not an adult, you are considered not mature enough to have an opinion. That's part for the course in every democracy. In a democracy, "X of the the country wants Y" = "X of people qualified to vote && who voted, want Y". Even in the suffrage and civil rights era, nobody seriously complained that this doesn't include 10 year olds or non-citizens of a country. >The problem is that only the views of the 24% that voted to leave, and arguably the 41% that voted leave or didn't vote, seem to matter. That's not a problem, that's how democracy works. Want your opinion to matter? 1) Become an adult (e.g. just wait), 2) Become a citizen (if you're a foreigner) 3) DO vote (don't stay at home). Else the others who are will determine the result. The real problem is the hypocrisy. In the sense that all of the above wouldn't be considered a problem if the majority had voted to remain.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        The problem in this case is that europe has spent 40 years welcoming people from elsewhere in europe. Doesn't matter where you're born, you have the right to live there and build a life. Imagine if Texas had a vote for independence, but only people born in Texas, and not those that moved from say Chicago, were allowed to vote. > In the sense that all of the above wouldn't be considered a problem if the majority had voted to remain. Except it would have been Farage was already calling for a second referendum before the results from the first came in. Rees Mogg and Owen Patterson were also big fans of two referendums, one to start the process, and one to confirm it 3 years later.
        coldtea 8y ago
        >Except it would have been Farage was already calling for a second referendum before the results from the first came in. Sure, hypocrisy on both sides ensure it would be called a problem by the other side. But it wouldn't be called a problem from _the same_ people today calling it a problem. So, it's the kind that's only a problem when your side loses -- in which case, it can be discarded as the usual complaint of any losing side ever.
megous 8y ago
> Those that didn't vote either way, don't count, and shouldn't count. That's 3 years ago. There are ~3-4 mil. more young people that are now elligible for vote. Should they have no say?
- lordlimecat 8y ago
  There are new voters who had no say in Trumps election. Thems just the breaks.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >That's 3 years ago. There are ~3-4 mil. more young people that are now elligible for vote. Should they have no say? They don't have a say in any other long-term-implementation matter which was voted before they became eligible for vote, so why would this be an exception?
  - megous 8y ago
    You just can't say what the country wants. You may only say what it wanted 3 years ago.

atzd4b 8y ago

More than half the people who cared enough to go and vote want to leave.

Jarmsy 8y ago
*wanted

jonplackett 8y ago

The point I was making is that the petition proves nothing that isn't already know - a lot of people don't want to leave. It's not even a march where people have to go somewhere to show how much they care. it's just a button click - which is an easier thing to do than go out and vote. so it's not worth reporting, it's meaningless.