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> mechanical task of taking notes rather than actually absorbing and engaging with the content The mechanical task of taking notes is one of the most important

> mechanical task of taking notes rather than actually absorbing and engaging with the content The mechanical task of taking notes is one of the most important parts of actually absorbing the material. It is not an either-or. Hearing/seeing the information, processing it in a way that makes sense to you individually, and then mechanically writing it down in a legible manner is one of the main methods that your brain learns. It's one of the primary reasons that taking notes is important in the first place. This is referred to as the "encoding hypothesis" [1]. There are actually even studies [2] that show that tools that assist in more efficient note taking, such as taking notes via typing rather than by hand, are actually detrimental to absorbing information, as it makes it easier for you to effectively pass the information directly from your ears to your computer without actually doing the processing that is required when writing notes by hand. This is why many universities prefer (or even require) notes to be taken by hand, and disallow laptops in class. 1: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0361476X78900206 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0361476X78... 2: https://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-put-your-laptops-away https://www.npr.org/2016/04/17/474525392/attention-students-...

function_seven 8y ago
Not that it detracts from your point, but I definitely benefited from notetaking on my computer in school. For an AP History class, I typed up—in outline style (I, II; A, B; 1, 2; a, b; etc)—all my notes on the required reading. At the end of the course, I had a few hundred pages of these notes all printed up. I never had to go back and read any of them. Just the process of typing them up in the first place firmly fixed all the knowledge in my mind. When taking the final and AP test, I could see the notes I had taken in my mind. Writing or typing didn’t make a difference. Just the rephrasing and condensing alone was enough. (Which, again, reënforces your point. I still had to consciously avoid “pass-thru” regurgitation)
- pjc50 8y ago
  > reënforces What's it like working at the New Yorker? (explanation: this is a joke based on the way nobody uses diaresis marks anymore for any word other than naive, except for the New Yorker style guide. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-the-diaeresis https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-... )
  - ninkendo 8y ago
    Not only that but the common spelling is "reinforces", which doesn't need a diaeresis at all. It's like function_seven went very far out of the way to show that they know what a diaeresis is...
    - function_seven 8y ago
      I’m not usually pretentious, but when it comes to the double-e, I lean in :)
- 4thaccount 8y ago
  History <> Math at all. I'm an electrical engineer (pretty good at math as that's all you do for 4 years in college), but can process a history lecture much much faster and easier. Outlines are great for History (I agree), but this isn't as easy for Math. A single equation can need more explanation than a novel. Note that I'm not at all belittling the study of history...just trying to show the counter to the parent post isn't 100% relevant here IMO.
  - function_seven 8y ago
    I was relating to the parent comment about writing v. typing, so I kinda lost the original point of the article. Yeah, Math is a much different subject when it comes to notetaking and processing the information you learn. There are a few equations to memorize, but to really excel at the subject, you need to learn more why's than you do what's
jgtrosh 8y ago
> There are actually even studies [2] that show that tools that assist in more efficient note taking, such as taking notes via typing rather than by hand, are actually detrimental to absorbing information, as it makes it easier for you to effectively pass the information directly from your ears to your computer without actually doing the processing that is required when writing notes by hand. This might very well be anecdotal, but in my experience, note taking in class (by hand or on computer) was nearly always how you describe it here. Everyone was expected to copy out every word on the board, from 6 years old to ~20 years old. Maybe it works for some, but to me class was to some extent an exercise in mindless dactilography.
- spdionis 8y ago
  This depends heavily on the country's educational system. I have gone through most of my middle-school and some high-school in Italy, and after that completed high-school in Moldova. Classes in Moldova were exactly how you described, and I hated it, while in Italy it was exactly the opposite. Having the teacher explaining and expanding on the content in the course books while students take their own personalized notes is much more efficient and productive.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
4thaccount 8y ago
I would disagree with you on the benefits of taking notes in higher maths. If I'm taking notes, I can barely follow what is going on in the lecture. If I don't take notes I can fully concentrate on the lecture and logic, but then I have nothing to study/reference. Teachers should provide notes so you don't have to do it yourself, especially if they're just writing off a sheet of paper. They're usually just worried that people then won't show up for class. I'm sure history is maybe different where the note taking is probably easy enough and reinforces what you learned, but with math you're not exactly comprehending everything you write down at the same speed as human language. When you're in high school: "The storming of the Bastille happened in..." is different than scribbling down the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus and wondering WTH is on your paper.
- kharak 8y ago
  I often wonder if those studies about "copying the entire lecture by taking notes" are an example of the Simpson Paradox. Breaking them down to sub-groups of students and their experience would surely reveal another picture. At least some students can't benefit from this, as my experience mirrors yours. Courses that required me to write everything down were those where I couldn't remember anything at the end. I just can't write and listen / comprehend at the same time.
  - 4thaccount 8y ago
    Agreed. Either lecture or tell me to read a chapter. I can't multi-task that well with learning something that detailed.
- globuous 8y ago
  Agreed, sometimes just copying the formula takes very long and you don't want to be making mistakes. Also, sometimes wording for explanation takes me long enough that I miss a few sentences from my lecturer. The best I think is still to come prepared for class by having read the required readings before hand.
marttt 8y ago
I wonder if traditional memory techniques (e.g. method of loci [1]) would have long-term benefits over taking notes by hand? According to this highly interesting HN thread, Alan Kay apparently doesn't take (much) notes [2]. I also found Warren Buffett's tip to focus on information that "doesn't expire or expires very slowly" an excellent rule of thumb for daily life. Obviously, with decades of books under their belts both of them are outstanding systems thinkers, so it must be true that they just don't need to take notes that much. I'm a 30-something, but I like to trust my brain's tendency to forget more and more. Most of the stuff I don't remember probably wasn't relevant for my current mental models. If it's important, it sticks in one way or another. (I try to reinforce this by using the aformentioned method of loci, but I'm not as confident with this as I would like to be. It involves creating "sticky" images for the brain, and thus it always requires at least several seconds for me to "store" something that way.) One probably won't be an A-level student with this approach, though -- but in trying to live a meaningful life, letting things (information) go often helps a lot. It's a great bullshit filter for everything. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11809285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11809285 3: https://fs.blog/2019/02/compounding-knowledge/ https://fs.blog/2019/02/compounding-knowledge/
- xyzzyz 8y ago
  I wonder if traditional memory techniques (e.g. method of loci [1]) would have long-term benefits over taking notes by hand? Mathematics already is a sort of hierarchical interconnected structure that allow you to easily remember everything, as long as you understand it. The understanding is the hard part, not remembering it. Mathematics is not a set of random facts that you have to memorize.
westurner 8y ago
> The mechanical task of taking notes is one of the most important parts of actually absorbing the material. It is not an either-or. Hearing/seeing the information, processing it in a way that makes sense to you individually, and then mechanically writing it down in a legible manner is one of the main methods that your brain learns. It's one of the primary reasons that taking notes is important in the first place. This is referred to as the "encoding hypothesis" [1]. There's almost certainly an advantage to learning to think about math using a publishable symbol set like LaTeX. We learn by reinforcement; with feedback loops that may take until weeks later in a typical university course. > There are actually even studies [2] that show that tools that assist in more efficient note taking, such as taking notes via typing rather than by hand, are actually detrimental to absorbing information, as it makes it easier for you to effectively pass the information directly from your ears to your computer without actually doing the processing that is required when writing notes by hand. Handwriting notes is impractical for some people due to e.g. injury and illegibility. The linked study regarding retention and handwritten versus typed notes has been debunked with references that are referenced elsewhere in comments on this post. There have been a few studies with insufficient controls (lack of randomization, for one) which have been widely repeated by educators who want to be given attention. Doodling has been shown to increase information retention. Maybe doodling as a control really would be appropriate. Banning laptops from lectures is not respectful of students with injury and illegible handwriting. Asking people to put their phones on silent (so they can still make and take emergency calls) and refrain from distracting other students with irrelevant content on their computers is reasonable and considerate. (What a cool approach to math note-taking. I feel a bit inferior because I haven't committed to learning that valuable, helpful skill and so that's stupid and you're just wasting your time because that's not even necessary when all you need to do is retain the information you've paid for for the next few months at most. If course, once you get on the job, you'll never always be using that tool and e.g. latex2sympy to actually apply that theory to solving a problem that people are willing to pay for. So, thanks for the tips and kudos, idiot)
quarkral 8y ago
I definitely agree with this for mathematical notes. Writing LaTeX is so mechanically different from writing down actual mathematical expressions and proofs that I feel like it distracts more than it helps me absorb. On the other hand for something like a psychology class where the material is mostly in English prose, then I feel like typing does help. Typing English is not so mechanically different than writing down English since each letter is still in a one-to-one correspondence.

function_seven 8y ago

Not that it detracts from your point, but I definitely benefited from notetaking on my computer in school. For an AP History class, I typed up—in outline style (I, II; A, B; 1, 2; a, b; etc)—all my notes on the required reading. At the end of the course, I had a few hundred pages of these notes all printed up. I never had to go back and read any of them. Just the process of typing them up in the first place firmly fixed all the knowledge in my mind. When taking the final and AP test, I could see the notes I had taken in my mind. Writing or typing didn’t make a difference. Just the rephrasing and condensing alone was enough. (Which, again, reënforces your point. I still had to consciously avoid “pass-thru” regurgitation)

pjc50 8y ago
> reënforces What's it like working at the New Yorker? (explanation: this is a joke based on the way nobody uses diaresis marks anymore for any word other than naive, except for the New Yorker style guide. https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-the-diaeresis https://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-curse-of-... )
- ninkendo 8y ago
  Not only that but the common spelling is "reinforces", which doesn't need a diaeresis at all. It's like function_seven went very far out of the way to show that they know what a diaeresis is...
  - function_seven 8y ago
    I’m not usually pretentious, but when it comes to the double-e, I lean in :)
4thaccount 8y ago
History <> Math at all. I'm an electrical engineer (pretty good at math as that's all you do for 4 years in college), but can process a history lecture much much faster and easier. Outlines are great for History (I agree), but this isn't as easy for Math. A single equation can need more explanation than a novel. Note that I'm not at all belittling the study of history...just trying to show the counter to the parent post isn't 100% relevant here IMO.
- function_seven 8y ago
  I was relating to the parent comment about writing v. typing, so I kinda lost the original point of the article. Yeah, Math is a much different subject when it comes to notetaking and processing the information you learn. There are a few equations to memorize, but to really excel at the subject, you need to learn more why's than you do what's

jgtrosh 8y ago

> There are actually even studies [2] that show that tools that assist in more efficient note taking, such as taking notes via typing rather than by hand, are actually detrimental to absorbing information, as it makes it easier for you to effectively pass the information directly from your ears to your computer without actually doing the processing that is required when writing notes by hand. This might very well be anecdotal, but in my experience, note taking in class (by hand or on computer) was nearly always how you describe it here. Everyone was expected to copy out every word on the board, from 6 years old to ~20 years old. Maybe it works for some, but to me class was to some extent an exercise in mindless dactilography.

spdionis 8y ago
This depends heavily on the country's educational system. I have gone through most of my middle-school and some high-school in Italy, and after that completed high-school in Moldova. Classes in Moldova were exactly how you described, and I hated it, while in Italy it was exactly the opposite. Having the teacher explaining and expanding on the content in the course books while students take their own personalized notes is much more efficient and productive.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

4thaccount 8y ago

I would disagree with you on the benefits of taking notes in higher maths. If I'm taking notes, I can barely follow what is going on in the lecture. If I don't take notes I can fully concentrate on the lecture and logic, but then I have nothing to study/reference. Teachers should provide notes so you don't have to do it yourself, especially if they're just writing off a sheet of paper. They're usually just worried that people then won't show up for class. I'm sure history is maybe different where the note taking is probably easy enough and reinforces what you learned, but with math you're not exactly comprehending everything you write down at the same speed as human language. When you're in high school: "The storming of the Bastille happened in..." is different than scribbling down the Fundamental Theorem of Calculus and wondering WTH is on your paper.

kharak 8y ago
I often wonder if those studies about "copying the entire lecture by taking notes" are an example of the Simpson Paradox. Breaking them down to sub-groups of students and their experience would surely reveal another picture. At least some students can't benefit from this, as my experience mirrors yours. Courses that required me to write everything down were those where I couldn't remember anything at the end. I just can't write and listen / comprehend at the same time.
- 4thaccount 8y ago
  Agreed. Either lecture or tell me to read a chapter. I can't multi-task that well with learning something that detailed.
globuous 8y ago
Agreed, sometimes just copying the formula takes very long and you don't want to be making mistakes. Also, sometimes wording for explanation takes me long enough that I miss a few sentences from my lecturer. The best I think is still to come prepared for class by having read the required readings before hand.

marttt 8y ago

I wonder if traditional memory techniques (e.g. method of loci [1]) would have long-term benefits over taking notes by hand? According to this highly interesting HN thread, Alan Kay apparently doesn't take (much) notes [2]. I also found Warren Buffett's tip to focus on information that "doesn't expire or expires very slowly" an excellent rule of thumb for daily life. Obviously, with decades of books under their belts both of them are outstanding systems thinkers, so it must be true that they just don't need to take notes that much. I'm a 30-something, but I like to trust my brain's tendency to forget more and more. Most of the stuff I don't remember probably wasn't relevant for my current mental models. If it's important, it sticks in one way or another. (I try to reinforce this by using the aformentioned method of loci, but I'm not as confident with this as I would like to be. It involves creating "sticky" images for the brain, and thus it always requires at least several seconds for me to "store" something that way.) One probably won't be an A-level student with this approach, though -- but in trying to live a meaningful life, letting things (information) go often helps a lot. It's a great bullshit filter for everything. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Method_of_loci 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11809285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11809285 3: https://fs.blog/2019/02/compounding-knowledge/ https://fs.blog/2019/02/compounding-knowledge/

xyzzyz 8y ago
I wonder if traditional memory techniques (e.g. method of loci [1]) would have long-term benefits over taking notes by hand? Mathematics already is a sort of hierarchical interconnected structure that allow you to easily remember everything, as long as you understand it. The understanding is the hard part, not remembering it. Mathematics is not a set of random facts that you have to memorize.

westurner 8y ago

> The mechanical task of taking notes is one of the most important parts of actually absorbing the material. It is not an either-or. Hearing/seeing the information, processing it in a way that makes sense to you individually, and then mechanically writing it down in a legible manner is one of the main methods that your brain learns. It's one of the primary reasons that taking notes is important in the first place. This is referred to as the "encoding hypothesis" [1]. There's almost certainly an advantage to learning to think about math using a publishable symbol set like LaTeX. We learn by reinforcement; with feedback loops that may take until weeks later in a typical university course. > There are actually even studies [2] that show that tools that assist in more efficient note taking, such as taking notes via typing rather than by hand, are actually detrimental to absorbing information, as it makes it easier for you to effectively pass the information directly from your ears to your computer without actually doing the processing that is required when writing notes by hand. Handwriting notes is impractical for some people due to e.g. injury and illegibility. The linked study regarding retention and handwritten versus typed notes has been debunked with references that are referenced elsewhere in comments on this post. There have been a few studies with insufficient controls (lack of randomization, for one) which have been widely repeated by educators who want to be given attention. Doodling has been shown to increase information retention. Maybe doodling as a control really would be appropriate. Banning laptops from lectures is not respectful of students with injury and illegible handwriting. Asking people to put their phones on silent (so they can still make and take emergency calls) and refrain from distracting other students with irrelevant content on their computers is reasonable and considerate. (What a cool approach to math note-taking. I feel a bit inferior because I haven't committed to learning that valuable, helpful skill and so that's stupid and you're just wasting your time because that's not even necessary when all you need to do is retain the information you've paid for for the next few months at most. If course, once you get on the job, you'll never always be using that tool and e.g. latex2sympy to actually apply that theory to solving a problem that people are willing to pay for. So, thanks for the tips and kudos, idiot)

quarkral 8y ago

I definitely agree with this for mathematical notes. Writing LaTeX is so mechanically different from writing down actual mathematical expressions and proofs that I feel like it distracts more than it helps me absorb. On the other hand for something like a psychology class where the material is mostly in English prose, then I feel like typing does help. Typing English is not so mechanically different than writing down English since each letter is still in a one-to-one correspondence.