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8chan is not the problem. People are the problem. If he never made 8chan they would have congregated somewhere else. I think this idea that unsavory websites br

by ng12 8y ago

8chan is not the problem. People are the problem. If he never made 8chan they would have congregated somewhere else. I think this idea that unsavory websites breed their unsavory bits is pretty close to blaming school shootings on video games.

daeken 8y ago
Platforms that explicitly enable harmful things (child pornography, racism, and much, much more in the case of 8chan) make the world a worse place. And sure, if this person hadn't created 8chan those horrible people may have just congregated somewhere else, but that next person could also decide not to create/support a hateful platform, and the next person, etc. Are they always going to exist? Of course. But we are all responsible for ensuring that they don't come into existence or continue to exist once they do.
- ng12 8y ago
  > horrible people may have just congregated somewhere else, but that next person could also decide not to create/support a hateful platform, and the next person, etc. But realistically how likely is this? For every sub Reddit bans a new one appears on Voat.
  - daeken 8y ago
    And how many people know about Voat versus Reddit? With each ban, the reach drops dramatically. C.f. 4chan vs 8chan.
    - flukus 8y ago
      Not many, but one of the arguments going around is that self reinforcing bubbles have helped create this problem, so forcing people into a smaller more self reinforcing community seems counter-productive.
    - ng12 8y ago
      If a sub you're on gets banned I'm sure you find out about it pretty quick.
briandear 8y ago
Considering that a bunch of Christians were massacred by Muslims in Nigeria around the same time as the New Zealand shooting and those killers weren’t known to be active Internet forum users, your theory seems correct. https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/matt-philbin/2019/03/19/other-massacre-networks-silent-islamists-butchering-nigerian https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/matt-philbin/2019/...
- duxup 8y ago
  I don't think a given atrocity that doesn't involve the internet... says anything about what might or might not happen with the internet... your conclusion makes no sense. Also that talking point about Christians in Nigeria has been a common talking point among folks who seem very interested indirectly playing down the NZ event, and I belive ignores that Muslims were massacred before the Christians in Nigeria just before the Christian event...
- ajross 8y ago
  Not to get too far down the digression, but... you don't find it odd that the only coverage you can find on that "massacre" is from right wing sources? I mean... terrorist attacks by muslims normally get front page press in the US. Why are they ignoring this one so totally? It's because it's fake. Or at best unverifiable. Someone took a press release from the Nigerian government about a death toll (not one event), spun, laundered and seasoned until it sounded like a terrorist attack, then launched it as counter press to (pause while I take a breath to calm down) effectively defend the very real, very hateful attack in NZ. What you just posted is straight up propaganda being used to "both sides" a way out for right wing, white christians to believe that this was somehow justified.
- brayhite 8y ago
  You and OP are missing the point - 8chan was a very social echo chamber. Playing video games, even multiplayer ones, don't have social reinforcement of violet and hateful opinions the way that contributing to an image board with hundreds if not thousands of others sharing and echoing your opinion does. It's dishonest to even suggest they're comparable.
ajross 8y ago
That's a sort of mixed up analogy. Video games don't advocate for action in the real world. Shooting a bunch of demons on mars isn't a proxy for an agenda of anti-demon martian immigration. Even if you're shooting a bunch of nazis in Wolfenstein, there's no logical path to an real world aryan genocide. But if you put a bunch of racists in a forum together, and there's no grownup there to tell them that this isn't OK, they'll fester and feed back and eventually someone will take things farther than the lulz-seekers originally intended. Like an aircraft accident, there's no one "fault" here. There are lots of contributing factors. But the ease of access to a welcoming shithole of hate is absolutely a contributing factor.
- ng12 8y ago
  > Video games don't advocate for action in the real world. The argument at the time was that the kids aren't violent, video games make them violent. The analogue here is that the shooter wasn't a radical, 8chan made him one. Shitty people radicalize each other with or without the internet, much less with or without a very specific site.
  - asutekku 8y ago
    It’s much easier to be radicalized if the only community around you is radical versus real life, where hardly anyone you know expresses the same feelings.
    - ng12 8y ago
      I'm loathe to bring up examples but clearly the most common cases of radicalization are directly through the local community.
      - ajross 8y ago
        I'd be curious to hear the argument there. I'm not sure that's "clear" at all. In fact virtually every mass murder or terrorism case I can think of has been perpetrated by men either almost entirely isolated or thoroughly immersed some kind of group think monoculture (either online or physical). Virtually no one comes out of a "local community" and starts killing people to further its interests, unless you define terrorist training camps as a local community. I mean, Harris and Klebold weren't exactly doing what they thought suburban Colorado wanted.

by ng12 8y ago

daeken 8y ago

Platforms that explicitly enable harmful things (child pornography, racism, and much, much more in the case of 8chan) make the world a worse place. And sure, if this person hadn't created 8chan those horrible people may have just congregated somewhere else, but that next person could also decide not to create/support a hateful platform, and the next person, etc. Are they always going to exist? Of course. But we are all responsible for ensuring that they don't come into existence or continue to exist once they do.

ng12 8y ago
> horrible people may have just congregated somewhere else, but that next person could also decide not to create/support a hateful platform, and the next person, etc. But realistically how likely is this? For every sub Reddit bans a new one appears on Voat.
- daeken 8y ago
  And how many people know about Voat versus Reddit? With each ban, the reach drops dramatically. C.f. 4chan vs 8chan.
  - flukus 8y ago
    Not many, but one of the arguments going around is that self reinforcing bubbles have helped create this problem, so forcing people into a smaller more self reinforcing community seems counter-productive.
  - ng12 8y ago
    If a sub you're on gets banned I'm sure you find out about it pretty quick.

briandear 8y ago

Considering that a bunch of Christians were massacred by Muslims in Nigeria around the same time as the New Zealand shooting and those killers weren’t known to be active Internet forum users, your theory seems correct. https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/matt-philbin/2019/03/19/other-massacre-networks-silent-islamists-butchering-nigerian https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/matt-philbin/2019/...

duxup 8y ago
I don't think a given atrocity that doesn't involve the internet... says anything about what might or might not happen with the internet... your conclusion makes no sense. Also that talking point about Christians in Nigeria has been a common talking point among folks who seem very interested indirectly playing down the NZ event, and I belive ignores that Muslims were massacred before the Christians in Nigeria just before the Christian event...
ajross 8y ago
Not to get too far down the digression, but... you don't find it odd that the only coverage you can find on that "massacre" is from right wing sources? I mean... terrorist attacks by muslims normally get front page press in the US. Why are they ignoring this one so totally? It's because it's fake. Or at best unverifiable. Someone took a press release from the Nigerian government about a death toll (not one event), spun, laundered and seasoned until it sounded like a terrorist attack, then launched it as counter press to (pause while I take a breath to calm down) effectively defend the very real, very hateful attack in NZ. What you just posted is straight up propaganda being used to "both sides" a way out for right wing, white christians to believe that this was somehow justified.
brayhite 8y ago
You and OP are missing the point - 8chan was a very social echo chamber. Playing video games, even multiplayer ones, don't have social reinforcement of violet and hateful opinions the way that contributing to an image board with hundreds if not thousands of others sharing and echoing your opinion does. It's dishonest to even suggest they're comparable.

ajross 8y ago

That's a sort of mixed up analogy. Video games don't advocate for action in the real world. Shooting a bunch of demons on mars isn't a proxy for an agenda of anti-demon martian immigration. Even if you're shooting a bunch of nazis in Wolfenstein, there's no logical path to an real world aryan genocide. But if you put a bunch of racists in a forum together, and there's no grownup there to tell them that this isn't OK, they'll fester and feed back and eventually someone will take things farther than the lulz-seekers originally intended. Like an aircraft accident, there's no one "fault" here. There are lots of contributing factors. But the ease of access to a welcoming shithole of hate is absolutely a contributing factor.

ng12 8y ago
> Video games don't advocate for action in the real world. The argument at the time was that the kids aren't violent, video games make them violent. The analogue here is that the shooter wasn't a radical, 8chan made him one. Shitty people radicalize each other with or without the internet, much less with or without a very specific site.
- asutekku 8y ago
  It’s much easier to be radicalized if the only community around you is radical versus real life, where hardly anyone you know expresses the same feelings.
  - ng12 8y ago
    I'm loathe to bring up examples but clearly the most common cases of radicalization are directly through the local community.
    - ajross 8y ago
      I'd be curious to hear the argument there. I'm not sure that's "clear" at all. In fact virtually every mass murder or terrorism case I can think of has been perpetrated by men either almost entirely isolated or thoroughly immersed some kind of group think monoculture (either online or physical). Virtually no one comes out of a "local community" and starts killing people to further its interests, unless you define terrorist training camps as a local community. I mean, Harris and Klebold weren't exactly doing what they thought suburban Colorado wanted.