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> This is consistent with a wide range of atheist writings and Webster's definition (but not with Chambers) The definitions you quoted in your comment make no

> This is consistent with a wide range of atheist writings and Webster's definition (but not with Chambers) The definitions you quoted in your comment make no mention of the concept of "claim." That's easily verified with ctrl-f. You're free to push an alternative definition that focuses on that concept, but your quote from Websters does not support you. Your definition also does not extinguish the definition you oppose, as that one clearly has some traction.

rgbrenner 8y ago
A belief and a lack of belief are not the same thing. Chambers says: Atheists believe god does not exists. This is a claim: that atheists have evidence god does not exist. And that is inaccurate.
- CharlesColeman 8y ago
  > You're claiming a belief and a lack of belief are the same things. Am I? That's news to me. What I'm actually doing is making claims about grammar, the semantic evaluation of sentences, the the potential existence of multiple valid definitions of the same word.
  - rgbrenner 8y ago
    You are by saying there's no difference in the definitons. Chambers says atheists have a belief. Websters says it's the lack of belief.
    - CharlesColeman 8y ago
      > You are by saying there's no difference in the definitons. Chambers says atheists have a belief. Websters says it's the lack of belief. You're ignoring half of each of the sentences in question. Simplified: one's "belief of non-existence", the other's "non-belief of existence." They both express the same state of belief in different ways. I understand you want the definitions to make different statements. They just don't, I'm sorry.
      - Latty 8y ago
        Why did you ignore me when I stated earlier that those two things are not equivalent? > They are arguing that this isn't boolean logic. > "god_exists == false" is not the same as "god_exists != true", because "not true" can mean "false", but also "almost certainly false" and many other things.
        CharlesColeman 8y ago
        “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” If you want to express a concept of probability like you tried to, it's exceedingly unclear. If you want to be understood, you should make it clearer what you're trying to say. Going back to the definitions originally quoted, the only way you find probabilities like that in them is by reading them in yourself.
        Latty 8y ago
        We don't walk around expecting gravity to suddenly change, or for elephants to suddenly appear around us. We are not talking about real probability - we are talking about an unfalsifiable thing having no evidence, which is functionally the same thing as proving it false, we can't prove it false, but we act like it is, because doing otherwise would mean acting like anything insane and unfalsifiable you can think of is true. The reason this distinction isn't clear is because no one needs to make it in the real world. Atheists don't believe in god. This doesn't mean that - if provided proof, they wouldn't change that belief. That's how normal people use "belief" in the real world, the only way that the weird definition twisting of "Atheist" makes sense here is trying to claim "belief" has to mean unwavering absolute truth. You can either be talking in absolute logic, and allow for "not false" to mean more than "true" because this isn't a boolean, or you can be talking in natural language where the central debate doesn't hold because no one uses belief like that. You can't pick and choose common use and holding to strict definitions.
        CharlesColeman 8y ago
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Chambers says: Atheists believe god does not exists. This is a claim: that atheists have evidence god does not exist. No, stating that atheists believe something is not stating that they have evidence. Evidence may support a belief, but it is not equivalent to having a belief, or required for having a belief. It may, depending on ones epistemological viewpoint, be required for justified belief, but the claim being examined is that atheism is not merely unjustified from a scientific perspective but actually incompatible with it, which would require it to actually contradict some belief justified by science, which it absolutely, even for classic “hard atheism”, positive belief in the non-existence of God, do; you'd need an ultra-hard atheism which not only has positive belief in the non-existence of God but also does not view that belief as contingent and subject to reevaluation should new evidence arise to actually be incompatible with science—this view may exisr somewhere, but if so it is still, at best, atypical of atheists.
Latty 8y ago
They are arguing that this isn't boolean logic. "god_exists == false" is not the same as "god_exists != true", because "not true" can mean "false", but also "almost certainly false" and many other things.
- majewsky 8y ago
  It absolutely is Boolean logic, if you know how to write it down: Definition 1 = Belief(not god) Definition 2 = not Belief(god)
  - candiodari 8y ago
    Even for the most basic of logic positions this is now considered outright false. Here are all the possible answers for Boolean predicate: 1) true 2) false 3) independent and, sort of, 4) unknown In a parallel dimension (using the true mathematical meaning of the word dimension here) there is also, about every predicate: 1) it is theoretically possible to know 2) it is theoretically impossible to know 3) it is impossible to know if it is theoretically possible to know (thanks a LOT, Godel) Note that in the case where it is impossible to know, there still exists an answer. There is just some reason we won't ever know the answer. If this is relevant, then of course the practical answer to your Boolean predicate is "unknown". In some cases it may be useful to pretend we know the answer, and expand math as if we know the answer. So yes, we even have claims that we consider "true, yet impossible to know". What that means is that we add a fact we can't prove or even prove as non-problematic as an axiom (e.g. the existence of large cardinal numbers. And of course, an honest mathematician would say that since the first 3 large cardinal number axioms were proven to be disasters, odds seem pretty good the current one is a catastrophe in some currently unknown way as well. But maybe we got lucky this time) And in yet ANOTHER dimension you have the rather important fact: 1) it is practically possible to know 2) it is not practically possible to know Here answer 2 is pretty nice, because that provides an argument, a useful dimension where we could research into expanding our practical options to practice science. Or perhaps I should say, it gives us a very practical reason to try to make one particular expansion of our knowledge. A LOT of claims in quantum physics fall into the 2) category and there's lots of research into finding the answers anyway. And sometimes a kindergarten teacher in Italy thinks of a way to ... So this means there are 12 possible answers to every predicate in maths. 3 basic ones. And there are many fun things that can be said about every independent claim, because then of course that predicate becomes an argument to change maths to change the answer.. So where does a claim about God fall ?

rgbrenner 8y ago

A belief and a lack of belief are not the same thing. Chambers says: Atheists believe god does not exists. This is a claim: that atheists have evidence god does not exist. And that is inaccurate.

CharlesColeman 8y ago
> You're claiming a belief and a lack of belief are the same things. Am I? That's news to me. What I'm actually doing is making claims about grammar, the semantic evaluation of sentences, the the potential existence of multiple valid definitions of the same word.
- rgbrenner 8y ago
  You are by saying there's no difference in the definitons. Chambers says atheists have a belief. Websters says it's the lack of belief.
  - CharlesColeman 8y ago
    > You are by saying there's no difference in the definitons. Chambers says atheists have a belief. Websters says it's the lack of belief. You're ignoring half of each of the sentences in question. Simplified: one's "belief of non-existence", the other's "non-belief of existence." They both express the same state of belief in different ways. I understand you want the definitions to make different statements. They just don't, I'm sorry.
    - Latty 8y ago
      Why did you ignore me when I stated earlier that those two things are not equivalent? > They are arguing that this isn't boolean logic. > "god_exists == false" is not the same as "god_exists != true", because "not true" can mean "false", but also "almost certainly false" and many other things.
      - CharlesColeman 8y ago
        “When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.” If you want to express a concept of probability like you tried to, it's exceedingly unclear. If you want to be understood, you should make it clearer what you're trying to say. Going back to the definitions originally quoted, the only way you find probabilities like that in them is by reading them in yourself.
        Latty 8y ago
        We don't walk around expecting gravity to suddenly change, or for elephants to suddenly appear around us. We are not talking about real probability - we are talking about an unfalsifiable thing having no evidence, which is functionally the same thing as proving it false, we can't prove it false, but we act like it is, because doing otherwise would mean acting like anything insane and unfalsifiable you can think of is true. The reason this distinction isn't clear is because no one needs to make it in the real world. Atheists don't believe in god. This doesn't mean that - if provided proof, they wouldn't change that belief. That's how normal people use "belief" in the real world, the only way that the weird definition twisting of "Atheist" makes sense here is trying to claim "belief" has to mean unwavering absolute truth. You can either be talking in absolute logic, and allow for "not false" to mean more than "true" because this isn't a boolean, or you can be talking in natural language where the central debate doesn't hold because no one uses belief like that. You can't pick and choose common use and holding to strict definitions.
        CharlesColeman 8y ago
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Chambers says: Atheists believe god does not exists. This is a claim: that atheists have evidence god does not exist. No, stating that atheists believe something is not stating that they have evidence. Evidence may support a belief, but it is not equivalent to having a belief, or required for having a belief. It may, depending on ones epistemological viewpoint, be required for justified belief, but the claim being examined is that atheism is not merely unjustified from a scientific perspective but actually incompatible with it, which would require it to actually contradict some belief justified by science, which it absolutely, even for classic “hard atheism”, positive belief in the non-existence of God, do; you'd need an ultra-hard atheism which not only has positive belief in the non-existence of God but also does not view that belief as contingent and subject to reevaluation should new evidence arise to actually be incompatible with science—this view may exisr somewhere, but if so it is still, at best, atypical of atheists.

Latty 8y ago

They are arguing that this isn't boolean logic. "god_exists == false" is not the same as "god_exists != true", because "not true" can mean "false", but also "almost certainly false" and many other things.

majewsky 8y ago
It absolutely is Boolean logic, if you know how to write it down: Definition 1 = Belief(not god) Definition 2 = not Belief(god)
- candiodari 8y ago
  Even for the most basic of logic positions this is now considered outright false. Here are all the possible answers for Boolean predicate: 1) true 2) false 3) independent and, sort of, 4) unknown In a parallel dimension (using the true mathematical meaning of the word dimension here) there is also, about every predicate: 1) it is theoretically possible to know 2) it is theoretically impossible to know 3) it is impossible to know if it is theoretically possible to know (thanks a LOT, Godel) Note that in the case where it is impossible to know, there still exists an answer. There is just some reason we won't ever know the answer. If this is relevant, then of course the practical answer to your Boolean predicate is "unknown". In some cases it may be useful to pretend we know the answer, and expand math as if we know the answer. So yes, we even have claims that we consider "true, yet impossible to know". What that means is that we add a fact we can't prove or even prove as non-problematic as an axiom (e.g. the existence of large cardinal numbers. And of course, an honest mathematician would say that since the first 3 large cardinal number axioms were proven to be disasters, odds seem pretty good the current one is a catastrophe in some currently unknown way as well. But maybe we got lucky this time) And in yet ANOTHER dimension you have the rather important fact: 1) it is practically possible to know 2) it is not practically possible to know Here answer 2 is pretty nice, because that provides an argument, a useful dimension where we could research into expanding our practical options to practice science. Or perhaps I should say, it gives us a very practical reason to try to make one particular expansion of our knowledge. A LOT of claims in quantum physics fall into the 2) category and there's lots of research into finding the answers anyway. And sometimes a kindergarten teacher in Italy thinks of a way to ... So this means there are 12 possible answers to every predicate in maths. 3 basic ones. And there are many fun things that can be said about every independent claim, because then of course that predicate becomes an argument to change maths to change the answer.. So where does a claim about God fall ?