4 ms·

Prisoners in England to be taught code

29 points by sizzle 8y ago

rumcajz 8y ago
Just a guess, but wouln't ops/devops work be a better fit for prisoners? Sitting for hours in front of a monitor, trying to solve an algorithmic puzzle doesn't seem to be the kind of hobby that gets you into prison. Conducting a complex operation, assessing the risks, hands-on work with hardware, even being on-call and saving the day when outage hits, that's more like it.
- raymondh 8y ago
  Presumably, getting caught and convicted introduces a selection bias away from the traits you just listed.
- systemspeed 8y ago
  If ops/devops were purely a game, yes. Yet ops is privy to a mountain of confidential information and has the power to arbitrarily shut down revenue sources. I would say this introduces a lot of risk into the equation.
- lozenge 8y ago
  I'm not an ops guy, but it's not really something that can be taught - you need the experience, whether it's with your own project or for an employer. Unless you are talking about those mid-tier IT workers who get Cisco certs and which are being squeezed by the cloud and devops.
- jacknews 8y ago
  prisoners in control of production systems, what could go wrong?
  - pnongrata 8y ago
    I've employed or worked with many ex-cons in my years. It was always the good guys who screwed up.
    - jacknews 8y ago
      I'm sure a good percentage of prisoners are there due to one stupid mistake, and many (hopefully most), leave prison reformed, or even enter prison reformed. I'm 100% for giving ex-cons a helping hand, and for offering training while they are prisoners - coding, of course, why not, it's a valuable skill. But that's not at all the same thing as having them sit monitoring/dev-oping production systems, which on the one hand is exploiting the prisoners, and on the other, exposes an obvious channel for un-reformed criminals to exploit. So yeah, prisoners doing devops work (rather than just devops training) is a dumb idea.
DBYCZ 8y ago
I wonder if the nearly unlimited free-time they have will offset their lack of internet access when it comes to learning speed.
- james_s_tayler 8y ago
  I'm not sure 'free-time' is what I'd call it. More like trapped-time.
  - barbecue_sauce 8y ago
    The time is free. The prisoner is not.
    - james_s_tayler 8y ago
      But you aren't free to do what you want. You are very constrained. You could do what Nick Yarris did and read thousands of books. I suppose you can let your mind adventure a little. Just seems so ironic calling it free time. Perhaps 'unallocated' is a better word?
      - barbecue_sauce 8y ago
        That's what free time already means.
BFLpL0QNek 8y ago
Numbers from 2015, 46% of prisoners have literacy issues that they are at the level of an 11-year-old. 52% have numeracy issues, a third self-reported having a learning difficulty or disability. Ref https://www.prisonerseducation.org.uk/media-press/new-government-data-on-english-and-maths-skills-of-prisoners https://www.prisonerseducation.org.uk/media-press/new-govern... "carefully vetted" prisoners as described in the article is likely to mean prisoners with literacy/numeracy skills. No issues with people being able to learn and better themselves, a bit of a nonstory it's just another training course on offer for people incarcerated. The only bit that concerns me is "prisoners will work on real-world projects with external clients" I hope they are not just being used as cheap labor.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  As someone who has been coding and developing software for almost twenty years, started young, had an aptitude for math and reading comprehension, scored high on standardized tests, got an advanced education and all the while, basically lived in front of a computer learning the full stack from top to bottom, painstakingly solving problems as they arise, debugging server configs, hardware issues, more debugging, and on and on ... I still find software development very difficult and mentally taxing. I am having a really really hard time buying any of this teach prisoners or coal miners to code mantra (my first word choice was 'nonsense'). And I am also having a hard time finding proof that even a single ex-coal miner is gainfully employed in a coding job today and I am seeing stories going back to 2012 about programs popping up to teach miners to code. I am sure there are a few, but it must be vanishingly few. It just doesn't seem like a good fit at all. It's opposite ends of the spectrum. Why don't we teach out of work coders to play professional rugby too? I guess teaching coal miners to become plumbers or electricians or heavy equipment operators (all of which they would already have many skills for if not already qualified) wouldn't grab headlines.
  - BFLpL0QNek 8y ago
    I don't think they aim to turn out computer science graduates. The article states they will be starting with HTML, CSS and JS, it's likely to be more computer competency than anything.
jmull3n 8y ago
Is giving a criminal the skills to write Malware really a smart move?

29 points by sizzle 8y ago

Just a guess, but wouln't ops/devops work be a better fit for prisoners? Sitting for hours in front of a monitor, trying to solve an algorithmic puzzle doesn't seem to be the kind of hobby that gets you into prison. Conducting a complex operation, assessing the risks, hands-on work with hardware, even being on-call and saving the day when outage hits, that's more like it.

raymondh 8y ago
Presumably, getting caught and convicted introduces a selection bias away from the traits you just listed.
systemspeed 8y ago
If ops/devops were purely a game, yes. Yet ops is privy to a mountain of confidential information and has the power to arbitrarily shut down revenue sources. I would say this introduces a lot of risk into the equation.
lozenge 8y ago
I'm not an ops guy, but it's not really something that can be taught - you need the experience, whether it's with your own project or for an employer. Unless you are talking about those mid-tier IT workers who get Cisco certs and which are being squeezed by the cloud and devops.
jacknews 8y ago
prisoners in control of production systems, what could go wrong?
- pnongrata 8y ago
  I've employed or worked with many ex-cons in my years. It was always the good guys who screwed up.
  - jacknews 8y ago
    I'm sure a good percentage of prisoners are there due to one stupid mistake, and many (hopefully most), leave prison reformed, or even enter prison reformed. I'm 100% for giving ex-cons a helping hand, and for offering training while they are prisoners - coding, of course, why not, it's a valuable skill. But that's not at all the same thing as having them sit monitoring/dev-oping production systems, which on the one hand is exploiting the prisoners, and on the other, exposes an obvious channel for un-reformed criminals to exploit. So yeah, prisoners doing devops work (rather than just devops training) is a dumb idea.

DBYCZ 8y ago

I wonder if the nearly unlimited free-time they have will offset their lack of internet access when it comes to learning speed.

james_s_tayler 8y ago
I'm not sure 'free-time' is what I'd call it. More like trapped-time.
- barbecue_sauce 8y ago
  The time is free. The prisoner is not.
  - james_s_tayler 8y ago
    But you aren't free to do what you want. You are very constrained. You could do what Nick Yarris did and read thousands of books. I suppose you can let your mind adventure a little. Just seems so ironic calling it free time. Perhaps 'unallocated' is a better word?
    - barbecue_sauce 8y ago
      That's what free time already means.

BFLpL0QNek 8y ago

Numbers from 2015, 46% of prisoners have literacy issues that they are at the level of an 11-year-old. 52% have numeracy issues, a third self-reported having a learning difficulty or disability. Ref https://www.prisonerseducation.org.uk/media-press/new-government-data-on-english-and-maths-skills-of-prisoners https://www.prisonerseducation.org.uk/media-press/new-govern... "carefully vetted" prisoners as described in the article is likely to mean prisoners with literacy/numeracy skills. No issues with people being able to learn and better themselves, a bit of a nonstory it's just another training course on offer for people incarcerated. The only bit that concerns me is "prisoners will work on real-world projects with external clients" I hope they are not just being used as cheap labor.

jjeaff 8y ago
As someone who has been coding and developing software for almost twenty years, started young, had an aptitude for math and reading comprehension, scored high on standardized tests, got an advanced education and all the while, basically lived in front of a computer learning the full stack from top to bottom, painstakingly solving problems as they arise, debugging server configs, hardware issues, more debugging, and on and on ... I still find software development very difficult and mentally taxing. I am having a really really hard time buying any of this teach prisoners or coal miners to code mantra (my first word choice was 'nonsense'). And I am also having a hard time finding proof that even a single ex-coal miner is gainfully employed in a coding job today and I am seeing stories going back to 2012 about programs popping up to teach miners to code. I am sure there are a few, but it must be vanishingly few. It just doesn't seem like a good fit at all. It's opposite ends of the spectrum. Why don't we teach out of work coders to play professional rugby too? I guess teaching coal miners to become plumbers or electricians or heavy equipment operators (all of which they would already have many skills for if not already qualified) wouldn't grab headlines.
- BFLpL0QNek 8y ago
  I don't think they aim to turn out computer science graduates. The article states they will be starting with HTML, CSS and JS, it's likely to be more computer competency than anything.

jmull3n 8y ago

Is giving a criminal the skills to write Malware really a smart move?