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We Pay You to Learn to Code
- zuck9 8y agoHow's this different from Lambda School?
- gingerbread-man 8y agoThis is for people who would prefer to teach themselves.
- ryanallr 8y agoDoes anybody really prefer that?
- gingerbread-man 8y agoSpeaking for myself, I generally prefer to learn at my own pace studying from books than from lectures and a standardized curriculum. But the issue here is value vs. risk: Lambda provides greater value (instructors, curriculum, etc...), but their income share amount is similar because it needn't account for the (presumably) higher risk of failure with self-study.
- halfeatenpie 8y agoI don't seem to be understanding the finances behind it. The agreement is by completing the program, you pay 15% of your salary for 2 years as long as you're receiving more than $40,000. However, it also says it's capped at $30,000 total over that period. If you pay someone a $2,000 a month salary for 21 weeks, that's already $42,000. Where's the extra $12,000 coming from? I'm just trying to understand since if I agree to quit my "current job" and rely on another company to help pay for me, I'm relying on that company to not pull the rug out from under me when I'm half-way through the program. How do I know this is a reliable and sustainable program? Interesting concept! That's just the first question that comes to mind for me.
- alehul 8y ago> If you pay someone a $2,000 a month salary for 21 weeks, that's already $42,000 It's $2,000 a month for 5 months, so $10,000 total.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- halfeatenpie 8y agoThat's true but they wrote a maximum of $30,000 total. Is that total the monthly max cap or total net "payment" back to the organization? If it's 2000 a month salary for 21 weeks then yeah that's fine, but I guess it's the semantics that I failed to understand.
- crazynick4 8y ago$30,000 is the max that you will pay back, calculated as a percentage of your salary once you are hired. $10,000 is what you will receive over the course of 5 months of training.
- halfeatenpie 8y agoI just realized I totally misread it. Now it makes sense. I just can't do math apparently.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- augustl 8y agoThis is a really great idea. I could easily see variants of this happening. For example, companies could fund the students and get to pick first. I can think of at least 5 people I know that has the potential to become competent developers, but their problem is exactly what this solves: they already have jobs and mortgages.
- gnicholas 8y agoCan you remove people from the program midway through, if it seems like they're not doing well? If so, what are the rules around this? In some ways this seems like a very selective program, since you pay people to do something whereas your competitors charge people. But selective programs would want to get the very best students — and here there's actually an adverse selection problem. That is, people who think they will be rock stars and get high-paying jobs will not want to enroll with you since they would expect the longer payback period (at their presumed high salary) would be less favorable than doing a typical program with a payback period that is half as long.
- mstade 8y agoIs it 15% of everything above $40k or does it include the $40k as well?
- CGamesPlay 8y agoIt has to be the former, or else you incentivizepeople to take jobs at 40k unless they can get an offer above 47k. Anything less that 47k and they end up paying more than if they’d taken a 40k job.
- mstade 8y agoThat's what I'm thinking, but it's not very clear on the site.
- dragonwriter 8y ago> It has to be the former, or else you incentivizepeople to take jobs at 40k unless they can get an offer above 47k. It's a full-stack dev training program that is clearly targeted to get people making around $100K/year over the first two years out, I doubt very much that they are really concerned with slight adverse incentives for students whose best offer is between $40-47K, which is deep in the failure zone.
- alehul 8y agoYou would think so, given the sibling comment about how people would be incentivized to make under $40k, but according to their Launch HN [1]: "The $40,000 threshold is inclusive. So if their income is equal to our greater than $40,000, they owe 15%. If they ever dip below $40,000 payments stop until it goes back up to $40,000." [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227441
- mstade 8y agoHey, thanks for the link! It seems odd to structure things this way but looking through that thread you linked to it seems they opted for simplicity. Not sure why this is simpler than 15% on the margin though.
- snazz 8y agoTheir Launch HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227441
- lucasmullens 8y ago> 100% remote - work from wherever you want > $91,476 - The salary of an entry-level front-end developer These two things should not be next to each other. It's exceptionally rare to get $90k a year remotely with no prior work experience.
- tenaciousDaniel 8y agoCorrect. My first job as a junior full stack dev was $76K, and that was in NYC.
- EpicEng 8y agoI've worked as a hiring manager and... yes, there's simply no way I would hire a remote junior dev, and certainly not at that salary.
- louisswiss 8y agoGood to know. Out of interest, what would you say are the key weaknesses at your company that makes successfully hiring, training and managing juniors for remote roles impossible?
- EpicEng 8y ago>Out of interest, what would you say are the key weaknesses at your company that makes successfully hiring, training and managing juniors for remote roles impossible? Faulty premise. I would say that it's simply not worth the risk for someone with essentially no way to show they can actually do the work and manage themselves.
- louisswiss 8y agoThe magnitude of risk depends to a large degree on the employer. > someone with essentially no way to show they can actually do the work and manage themselves. Two quick follow up points on that (the second point is more important)... 1. Junior devs graduating from places like this and Lambda School will have spent months learning, collaborating and working remotely as part of their course. I wouldn't say that counts as proof that they can do the work per se, but it's definitely proof that - if they can do they work - they can do it remotely. 2. You have the same challenges with non-remote hires as well... What part of your hiring/onboarding/management process requires you to be able to physically touch the junior dev in question? BTW I absolutely don't think all companies should hire remote. And I don't think all junior devs would be good remote hires. Far from it. But there are enough successful companies out there hiring remote junior devs to prove that it is possible. So when someone says they would never hire a remote junior dev, it just seems silly to me to pretend that's anything more than a company masking serious hiring, training or culture problems which remote work would expose...
- Shaddox 8y agoWow, this is significantly more than what I make in Eastern Europe. Sign me up!
- iagovar 8y agoYeah, except about this: > (you must have the right to work in the US) So you and I, both out.
- williesleg 8y agoFinally!!! I can learn to code!!!!
- everdev 8y ago> After the program graduates pay 15% of their income for 2 years if they are earning over $40,000, capped at $30,000 total paid back to Modern Labor. Something about taking a cut of someone's salary doesn't feel right to me. If you were to borrow the $10k that they give you, over a 2 year period at a 10% rate (maximum allowed by law in CA), you'd pay a little over $11k. Modern Labor will charge you up to $30k over that same 2 year period, for an interest rate north of 100%. How is this initial $10k different from a loan? Just because it's coming out of your salary doesn't mean it's not usurious.
- advisedwang 8y agoAt least it means if you are not doing well later, you aren't bogged down by repayments or the threat of default.
- mediocrejoker 8y agoIf someone can get a loan, then they should clearly do that instead of using this company. If not, then their options are this company or no education (assuming education costs this much).
- everdev 8y agoThat's loan shark mentality: "Sure the rate is high, but you should take this money because you're in a tight spot and it's the best offer you'll get."
- humbleMouse 8y ago> Something about taking a cut of someone's salary doesn't feel right to me. Ummm, that's how the whole tech industry works. Ever work for a recruiter? They're taking a cut of your salary.
- everdev 8y agoThe company that hires you pays it, not you.
- lost_my_pwd 8y agoWay down at the end of the page an "oh, by the way..." disclosure: After the program graduates pay 15% of their income for 2 years if they are earning over $40,000, capped at $30,000 total paid back to Modern Labor. There is also the implication that a potential starting salary is $91,476: $91,476 The salary of an entry-level front-end developer (Source: PayScale, 2019) Assuming that was somehow true... %15 * $92K * 2yr - ($2K/mo * 5mo) = $17.6K total cost of tuition Looking around, ~$11.4K is the average tuition for a coding school, so this proposition works out to be a rather high interest loan (that can't be paid off early): $17.6K - $11.4K = $6.2K in interest $6.2K / $17.6K / 2yr = 17.6% APR
- soneca 8y agoBut that does not need to be paid if you do not get a well-paying job after it
- everdev 8y agoI would not call $40k/year a well-paying software job.
- sokoloff 8y agoIt's also a high-risk lending operation, and high-risk lending naturally comes with high interest rates. Maybe someone takes 6 months to find a job, now the interest rate is under 7%. I think that tying your own financial reward to the financial success of your graduates is perfectly OK, perhaps even desirable.
- tasuki 8y agoThe important difference being that with this program, you don't pay if it doesn't work out for you. The 17.6% APR is in case of a success - they just helped start your career. Seems well worth the greatly reduced risk!
- everdev 8y ago> The 17.6% APR is in case of a success If making $40k/year is "success". With your $6k payment on the $40k you made, your $34k is barely above the poverty line. > Seems well worth the greatly reduced risk! No, it doesn't. Just seems like a 300% repayment rate. I bet the number of software jobs starting under $40k is in the bottom 5%, maybe 1% of job listings. So, you're basically only mitigating risk if you can't find a job.
- aqibgatoo 8y agoWhat about outside US?
- totololo 8y agoIs there anything for similar for Europeans? 42 is tuition free and now age agnostic but that’s it as far as I know...
- pixelbath 8y agoI feel like this might be solving the wrong problem. Are we at the point where we don't have enough experienced coders looking for work? Why not create a better way to find jobs for them first?
- 0xffff2 8y agoWe definitely don't have enough competent (which is most definitely distinct from "experienced") coders looking for work.
- peterwwillis 8y agoWho is the target audience specifically? There are lots of organizations who work with state unemployment agencies around the country to try to place people with training, and then help find them jobs. This seems perfectly placed for that. Assuming I could find 10 formerly convicted felons who live on unemployment/welfare and dropped out of high school and got them to apply to this program, would they get accepted? If "The most important thing we care about is evidence of grit" is true, I think these individuals should qualify.
- cjg 8y agoI know another company that has been doing something similar in the UK for a few years. In their model they pay for you to train and guarantee you a job at the end of it. The catch is that you have to repay your tuition if you leave that job within 1 or 2 years. They send you on crappy consultancy projects and pay you a relatively low wage while they rake in high consultancy fees. The people I know who had trained through that could not wait to leave and didn't feel that it had been overall positive. On the upside you get some work experience too.
- crypt1d 8y ago> Currently, you must have the right to work in the US in order to apply. I wonder why, though? Is there a legal barrier that prevents them from introducing this to foreign students as well? Or is it just because US-based salaries are much higher than in many other parts of the world?
- SiliconAlley 8y agoI am surprised that nobody has raised the question of whether this is 15% of gross pay, pre-tax or 15% of net pay, post-witholding (well assuming W2 positions)? Those are very different things, especially in states like CA/NY where I imagine many candidates might end up being placed. In those contexts 15% of gross might be more like a 25-30% effective share of the developer's net income (?)
- bitwize 8y agoThis smells too much of Unbounded Solutions/BrighterBrain style scumbaggery -- a wooden nickel I would advise anyone not to take. Want to learn programming on the cheap? Take or audit courses at your local community college or state university, or learn on your own.
- randall 8y agoDupe of https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227441 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19227441 ?
- CobrastanJorji 8y agoThis page may be advertising an entirely legitimate program, but it's going out of its way to set off as many "shady business" alarms as possible. The cynic in me says this may even be intentional, for the same reason that Nigerian scammers keep saying they're from Nigeria: to filter out the suspicious.
- rsweeney21 8y agoThis is very similar to Lambda School, another YC backed startup that is doing very well. Lambda School went through the YC program just 1.5 years before YC decided to back a competitor. Not cool. Good VCs will bow out if they have a conflicting investment. YC sets a great example for many policies, but I think they got this one very wrong. Now, if I am applying to YC I'm going to have to consider that they will have access to sensitive plans, strategies, strengths, and weaknesses of my startup, and that they might inadvertently share that with a competitor in a later batch. I'm sure they'll say they have a Chinese wall and don't share information, but YC as a company now has a conflict of interest. Really makes you think twice.
- blairanderson 8y agowhere does YC state they will only fund a single company per vertical?
- rsweeney21 8y agoThey don't. That's my point. Most VCs won't invest in a competitor, but YC does. I think that's bad for founders.
- pier25 8y agoThey really expect to have someone from zero coding to full stack in only 12 weeks? 3 months is barely enough to get started on modern front end, assuming you already have programming experience. Either they have found some revolutionary new way of injecting data into the brain Matrix style, or the people coming out of that program won't be even close to ready and will probably have a mess in their heads. Also 90K for an entry level remote position? I have 20 years of experience, where do I have to sign for that? I'd gladly take an entry level position with zero responsibilities for that kind of money.
- blairanderson 8y agoThis is exactly the LAMBDASCHOOL model. I fully support more attempts to spread this out! Competition is good!
- ebiester 8y agoI'll be the competitor. We will pay you to learn to code, then place you on projects for real clients. They will then have the option to hire you within 6 months. It's outsourcing cross training. (We'll have a few senior devs to mentor the teams, and we'll hire an exec or three involved in government contracting to give ourselves multiple options.) Who wants to fund? laughs
- dakkenet 8y agoWhat alarms me is that students are tying up a large portion of their future income to self-teach from MOOCs and other freely available online sources. If I have the gumption to learn on my own, is a little bit of cash really what's holding me back?
- HNLurker2 8y agoOff topic am I the only one fascinated that Eliezer commented in the other discussion? I am just excited that this guy is still using hacker news for 10 years now (he mentioned in 2009 q&a that). 27 days ago (my favorite non fiction writer of all time): https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Eliezer https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=Eliezer His comment is this: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19231120 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19231120