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What about those things is undesirable? Leaving religion aside, it seems like all those (OpenOffice aside :) lead to a much happier state of mind than the alter

What about those things is undesirable? Leaving religion aside, it seems like all those (OpenOffice aside :) lead to a much happier state of mind than the alternative.

Tycho 16y ago
1. Automatically loving thy neighbour (ie. everyone) is a ridiculous notion. You love the people that are most important to you, that deserve your utmost respect and kindness, so of course this will mean you love a select few. Furthermore, trying to think up reasons why you should love any random neighbour would be an exhausting exercise in self-deception. Plus if you don't love people for their qualities, but instead for the mere fact of their existence, then your love doesn't mean anything. So not only does this advice set a near impossible task, but it devalues real love. 2. Obviously being an inconsiderate jerk is a bad life strategy, but it's easy to embrace 'unselfishness' as the reason for not pursuing your talents until you reach brilliance, or not maximizing your earning potential. Most people don't have the energy to live their lives in the service of others (becoming aid workers or whatever), but many dabble in a sort of self-congratulatory mediocrity. Also breeds an unhealthy resentment for the entrepreneurs and geniuses that propel our civilization. 3. Not caring about money/possessions, all the while enjoying the material comfort brought by your parents' or society's wealth, is a sure fire way to end up in a situation when you don't have that comfort anymore. At which point you'll realize that you really do care about money/possessions, because you can't pretend anymore, reality has caught up with you. 4. 'Judge not and ye shall not be judged' is another ridiculous notion. Obviously it should be 'judge, and expect to be judged' - which leads to principles and integrity. Of course Christians want you to have principles/morality etc., but simultaneously to refrain from pronouncing judgement on those that fail to meet these standards. This means the bad people get away with a lot of stuff, and also makes you timid and unsure about what's right. Nothing's anchored, everything's a case of 'who knows what I would have done in their shoes.' Undermines your own will/agency (just say what you would do in their shoes, or what they should have done), and self-esteem (your only a noble person because you have an easy life blablabla) In short these sorts of teachings make you constantly unsure of your place in the world and encourage poor career decisions.
- larrywright 16y ago
  I think you're putting an unnecessarily negative spin on these things, and perhaps taking them more literally than they're intended. Here's my take: 1. "love thy neighbor" - Don't waste time hating people. Forgive and forget. 2. "don't be selfish" - Put others before yourself. Anyone who has been in a relationship will tell you this is a good idea, but it applies elsewhere as well. If you manage people at your job, put their needs above yours. It doesn't mean give up any ambitions of your own, but living a life focused solely on yourself doesn't yield happiness either. 3. "don't care about money/possessions" - The basic necessities, like a roof over your head and food on your plate, are fine. Spending your life in pursuit of material possessions isn't going to be satisfying. Having things is fine. Letting your life center around acquiring money and possessions isn't. 4. "don't judge" - You're not perfect, neither is anybody else. It's not about letting people get away with things, but not condemning them when they make mistakes.
  - Tycho 16y ago
    I don't think I'm taking things too literally, although obviously I'm focusing on the negative impact, as per the original question. 1. Sorry, but the verse isn't 'try to get along with thy neighbour' or 'tolerate thy neighbour' it's love thy neighbour. I'm all for amicable and polite relations with people/strangers, but as far as i can tell the teaching really aspires to a sort of 'what would Jesus do?' level of care towards people wherever you find them. 2. I don't think putting others before yourself is a good idea, except in the case of close family or partners. Have faith in yourself, take opportunities where you find them, better yourself, don't feel bad about it - if you put others first you can't necessarily do those things, and whats more the others wont necessarily appreciate your action and/or see that it wasn't done in vain. Of course, you should still be honourable towards others. 3. Interior dialogue goes something like this - 'Well, what career should I choose? Medicine perhaps? Well, that makes lots of money, but I don't feel a natural calling for it. And since money isn't important, I ought to choose something else. I'll study English literature, which wont land me a high-paying job, but that's not what I care about.' Ten years later: 'Well writing isn't going to get me a job at all, so I'm not much different from an unskilled/uneducated member of the workforce. I feel I could achieve a lot and offer a lot to society, but now I'll just take a low paying office job. If I was a doctor, I could be having kids right now, buying a house, saving for their education, have long-term financial security and the ability to help other family members, going around the world on holiday having enriching experiences. Oh well.' Money gives you security and freedom, the idea of settling for the basic necessities is very dangerous IMO and not likely to lead to happiness. 4. Christianity at its core is about forgiveness, and in the end it leads to sacrificing justice for mercy, which leads to dysfunctional relationships or communities. Yeah 'nobody's perfect' is a good lesson but these teachings go further than that

What about those things is undesirable? Leaving religion aside, it seems like all those (OpenOffice aside :) lead to a much happier state of mind than the alternative.

Tycho 16y ago

1. Automatically loving thy neighbour (ie. everyone) is a ridiculous notion. You love the people that are most important to you, that deserve your utmost respect and kindness, so of course this will mean you love a select few. Furthermore, trying to think up reasons why you should love any random neighbour would be an exhausting exercise in self-deception. Plus if you don't love people for their qualities, but instead for the mere fact of their existence, then your love doesn't mean anything. So not only does this advice set a near impossible task, but it devalues real love. 2. Obviously being an inconsiderate jerk is a bad life strategy, but it's easy to embrace 'unselfishness' as the reason for not pursuing your talents until you reach brilliance, or not maximizing your earning potential. Most people don't have the energy to live their lives in the service of others (becoming aid workers or whatever), but many dabble in a sort of self-congratulatory mediocrity. Also breeds an unhealthy resentment for the entrepreneurs and geniuses that propel our civilization. 3. Not caring about money/possessions, all the while enjoying the material comfort brought by your parents' or society's wealth, is a sure fire way to end up in a situation when you don't have that comfort anymore. At which point you'll realize that you really do care about money/possessions, because you can't pretend anymore, reality has caught up with you. 4. 'Judge not and ye shall not be judged' is another ridiculous notion. Obviously it should be 'judge, and expect to be judged' - which leads to principles and integrity. Of course Christians want you to have principles/morality etc., but simultaneously to refrain from pronouncing judgement on those that fail to meet these standards. This means the bad people get away with a lot of stuff, and also makes you timid and unsure about what's right. Nothing's anchored, everything's a case of 'who knows what I would have done in their shoes.' Undermines your own will/agency (just say what you would do in their shoes, or what they should have done), and self-esteem (your only a noble person because you have an easy life blablabla) In short these sorts of teachings make you constantly unsure of your place in the world and encourage poor career decisions.

larrywright 16y ago
I think you're putting an unnecessarily negative spin on these things, and perhaps taking them more literally than they're intended. Here's my take: 1. "love thy neighbor" - Don't waste time hating people. Forgive and forget. 2. "don't be selfish" - Put others before yourself. Anyone who has been in a relationship will tell you this is a good idea, but it applies elsewhere as well. If you manage people at your job, put their needs above yours. It doesn't mean give up any ambitions of your own, but living a life focused solely on yourself doesn't yield happiness either. 3. "don't care about money/possessions" - The basic necessities, like a roof over your head and food on your plate, are fine. Spending your life in pursuit of material possessions isn't going to be satisfying. Having things is fine. Letting your life center around acquiring money and possessions isn't. 4. "don't judge" - You're not perfect, neither is anybody else. It's not about letting people get away with things, but not condemning them when they make mistakes.
- Tycho 16y ago
  I don't think I'm taking things too literally, although obviously I'm focusing on the negative impact, as per the original question. 1. Sorry, but the verse isn't 'try to get along with thy neighbour' or 'tolerate thy neighbour' it's love thy neighbour. I'm all for amicable and polite relations with people/strangers, but as far as i can tell the teaching really aspires to a sort of 'what would Jesus do?' level of care towards people wherever you find them. 2. I don't think putting others before yourself is a good idea, except in the case of close family or partners. Have faith in yourself, take opportunities where you find them, better yourself, don't feel bad about it - if you put others first you can't necessarily do those things, and whats more the others wont necessarily appreciate your action and/or see that it wasn't done in vain. Of course, you should still be honourable towards others. 3. Interior dialogue goes something like this - 'Well, what career should I choose? Medicine perhaps? Well, that makes lots of money, but I don't feel a natural calling for it. And since money isn't important, I ought to choose something else. I'll study English literature, which wont land me a high-paying job, but that's not what I care about.' Ten years later: 'Well writing isn't going to get me a job at all, so I'm not much different from an unskilled/uneducated member of the workforce. I feel I could achieve a lot and offer a lot to society, but now I'll just take a low paying office job. If I was a doctor, I could be having kids right now, buying a house, saving for their education, have long-term financial security and the ability to help other family members, going around the world on holiday having enriching experiences. Oh well.' Money gives you security and freedom, the idea of settling for the basic necessities is very dangerous IMO and not likely to lead to happiness. 4. Christianity at its core is about forgiveness, and in the end it leads to sacrificing justice for mercy, which leads to dysfunctional relationships or communities. Yeah 'nobody's perfect' is a good lesson but these teachings go further than that