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The business argument would have been "you can't maintain majority market share with such tight fisted control of the app store, approval process, choice of car

by btmorex 16y ago

The business argument would have been "you can't maintain majority market share with such tight fisted control of the app store, approval process, choice of carrier, etc". But that was really an argument that applied 1+ years ago before iphone lost momentum to android. At this point, I don't think there's a way for the iphone to win against android.

hugh3 16y ago
The business argument would have been "you can't maintain majority market share with such tight fisted control of the app store, approval process, choice of carrier, etc". Choice of carrier is a serious issue. The other things? Not so much. The vast majority of iPhone users neither know nor care about the App Store approval process, and there's a more-than-sufficient number of happy developers out there to keep the App Store humming indefinitely.
- semanticist 16y ago
  Plenty of choice of carrier in the UK and other places. The carrier restrictions seem to largely be a North American problem.
  - hugh3 16y ago
    True. But North America is a very big market, so it's still a big problem for them.
    - spot 16y ago
      So how do the numbers fall in the UK? What is the market share of Android vs iPhone where they have equal availability?
semanticist 16y ago
Talk of 'winning' or 'losing' is foolish - this isn't a game with pre-set victory conditions. Apple, a single device manufacturer, will inevitably not sell as many units as the combined Android device manufacturers. It's like comparing the output of Smart to the output of Ford. Apple don't need - and never had, anyway - a majority market share in order to turn a significant profit on selling devices. (And they are turning a significant profit - a quick Google shows Apple were reporting quarterly profits up 70% a couple of months ago.)
- ergo98 16y ago
  You have pretty much all of the pro-Apple talking points covered in your various posts in this discussion. I urge you not to simply accept them because you read them elsewhere, however, because they're largely baseless.
  - semanticist 16y ago
    That's a slightly better attempt at dismissing what I've said than going 'stupid Apple fanboi', but it amounts to the same thing. Do you honestly think the idea that there will be no single 'winner' or 'loser' in the smartphone market is baseless? What brings you to this conclusion? If you're thinking in terms of the desktop PC market, where Windows is the clear winner, that's an anomaly and I don't think you're going to see it repeated in any consumer device market. But if you've sound reasoning for why anything I've said is incorrect, please let me know. I'm not a blind Apple fanboi, and I don't think that Apple's devices are automatically the best choice. (After an increasingly frustrating experience with my iPhone, I'm living with it only long enough for Nokia to start releasing MeeGo devices.)
    - ergo98 16y ago
      Hey I'm not trying to insult you. I'm being serious.
      - semanticist 16y ago
        I don't read any of those sites, except occasionally when linked from HN. The closest I come is sometimes catching up on macrumors when I'm bored. What you're seeing in my comments is not mindless repetition of someone else's talking point, it's my own opinion derived from my experience with both Apple and the mobile phone industry. That aside, I'm not sure I've really said anything 'pro-Apple' at all. What I said was that this isn't anything new and that Apple's behaviour makes sense given their business model. I've also dismissed the idea that Apple ever had a majority of the market (surely that would be ANTI-Apple, to so much as imply that other people might also make decent phones!) and tried to argue against mindless polarisation. If you want to talk about something that's influenced by American politics, talk about people who believe that everything is split down into distinct 'winners' and 'losers' with no subtlety at all. From my limited exposure to American politics (The Daily Show, our reporting of your news, and American friends (mostly left-wing) and family (mostly right-wing)) that 'us or them' seems to be perhaps the defining feature of American politics right now. But now I'm really digressing. [Edit: my comment might look a little random now. Originally the comment I was replying to had references to pro-Mac bloggers and implied that I was simply repeating their ideas in an 'echo chamber' effect, and compared it to political discourse being led the same way.]
rimantas 16y ago
Market share again… Tell me, what's the point of market share? See there: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/10/30/iphone-4-of-market-50-of-profit/ http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/10/30/iphone-4-of-market-50... Apple won't ever have 100% or 80% percent of industry profits, so going after market share would only mean decreasing margin. I doubt they want that. Now, another argument is "developer go where market share is". Again, market share of the devices, or market share of profits made from apps? And there is another question of developing for the zoo of phones instead of 4 models, of which only most recent matter most.
uptown 16y ago
"At this point, I don't think there's a way for the iphone to win against android." Winning and losing could be defined by a variety of metrics (app sales, cross-marketing success of other devices, content-sales, etc.), but surely Apple could take a large step towards expanding their presence by opening up their devices to every carrier. Make the iPhone available on Verizon, Sprint, TMobile, and AT&T ... and commoditize the price of the handset and I think you'll see a renewed fight for the "winner".

by btmorex 16y ago

hugh3 16y ago

The business argument would have been "you can't maintain majority market share with such tight fisted control of the app store, approval process, choice of carrier, etc". Choice of carrier is a serious issue. The other things? Not so much. The vast majority of iPhone users neither know nor care about the App Store approval process, and there's a more-than-sufficient number of happy developers out there to keep the App Store humming indefinitely.

semanticist 16y ago
Plenty of choice of carrier in the UK and other places. The carrier restrictions seem to largely be a North American problem.
- hugh3 16y ago
  True. But North America is a very big market, so it's still a big problem for them.
  - spot 16y ago
    So how do the numbers fall in the UK? What is the market share of Android vs iPhone where they have equal availability?

semanticist 16y ago

Talk of 'winning' or 'losing' is foolish - this isn't a game with pre-set victory conditions. Apple, a single device manufacturer, will inevitably not sell as many units as the combined Android device manufacturers. It's like comparing the output of Smart to the output of Ford. Apple don't need - and never had, anyway - a majority market share in order to turn a significant profit on selling devices. (And they are turning a significant profit - a quick Google shows Apple were reporting quarterly profits up 70% a couple of months ago.)

ergo98 16y ago
You have pretty much all of the pro-Apple talking points covered in your various posts in this discussion. I urge you not to simply accept them because you read them elsewhere, however, because they're largely baseless.
- semanticist 16y ago
  That's a slightly better attempt at dismissing what I've said than going 'stupid Apple fanboi', but it amounts to the same thing. Do you honestly think the idea that there will be no single 'winner' or 'loser' in the smartphone market is baseless? What brings you to this conclusion? If you're thinking in terms of the desktop PC market, where Windows is the clear winner, that's an anomaly and I don't think you're going to see it repeated in any consumer device market. But if you've sound reasoning for why anything I've said is incorrect, please let me know. I'm not a blind Apple fanboi, and I don't think that Apple's devices are automatically the best choice. (After an increasingly frustrating experience with my iPhone, I'm living with it only long enough for Nokia to start releasing MeeGo devices.)
  - ergo98 16y ago
    Hey I'm not trying to insult you. I'm being serious.
    - semanticist 16y ago
      I don't read any of those sites, except occasionally when linked from HN. The closest I come is sometimes catching up on macrumors when I'm bored. What you're seeing in my comments is not mindless repetition of someone else's talking point, it's my own opinion derived from my experience with both Apple and the mobile phone industry. That aside, I'm not sure I've really said anything 'pro-Apple' at all. What I said was that this isn't anything new and that Apple's behaviour makes sense given their business model. I've also dismissed the idea that Apple ever had a majority of the market (surely that would be ANTI-Apple, to so much as imply that other people might also make decent phones!) and tried to argue against mindless polarisation. If you want to talk about something that's influenced by American politics, talk about people who believe that everything is split down into distinct 'winners' and 'losers' with no subtlety at all. From my limited exposure to American politics (The Daily Show, our reporting of your news, and American friends (mostly left-wing) and family (mostly right-wing)) that 'us or them' seems to be perhaps the defining feature of American politics right now. But now I'm really digressing. [Edit: my comment might look a little random now. Originally the comment I was replying to had references to pro-Mac bloggers and implied that I was simply repeating their ideas in an 'echo chamber' effect, and compared it to political discourse being led the same way.]

rimantas 16y ago

Market share again… Tell me, what's the point of market share? See there: http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/10/30/iphone-4-of-market-50-of-profit/ http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2010/10/30/iphone-4-of-market-50... Apple won't ever have 100% or 80% percent of industry profits, so going after market share would only mean decreasing margin. I doubt they want that. Now, another argument is "developer go where market share is". Again, market share of the devices, or market share of profits made from apps? And there is another question of developing for the zoo of phones instead of 4 models, of which only most recent matter most.

uptown 16y ago

"At this point, I don't think there's a way for the iphone to win against android." Winning and losing could be defined by a variety of metrics (app sales, cross-marketing success of other devices, content-sales, etc.), but surely Apple could take a large step towards expanding their presence by opening up their devices to every carrier. Make the iPhone available on Verizon, Sprint, TMobile, and AT&T ... and commoditize the price of the handset and I think you'll see a renewed fight for the "winner".