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How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die b

How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die before age 40? This stereotype of dingy third-world airlines with incompetent, untrained pilots borders on racism. At the very least, one should notice that flying the world’s newest airliner in significant numbers is incompatible with one‘s preconceptions.

oldgradstudent 8y ago
The first officer in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 was confirmed to have 350 flight hours, which is much lower then the US standard for the large carriers. Southwest Airlines, for example requires: > Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered. https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications Delta requires: > Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time. > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turboprop or turbofan time. > 90% of the flight time logged in powered lift category aircraft (e.g. AV-8B, F-35B, and V-22) will be credited to the Delta Air Lines 1,000 hour fixed wing turboprop/turbofan requirement. > Minimum of 250 hours PIC in an aircraft categorized as an airplane. > The flight time logged in a powered lift category aircraft cannot be credited towards PIC aircraft time in accordance with 14 C.F.R. 61.159. > Minimum of 50 hours of fixed wing multi-engine time. https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm United requires: > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed-wing turbine time https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.ht... The European carriers, on the other hand, do not have such strict requirements.
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  These are all pilot qualifications. The first officer was new and had ~200 flight hours. The pilot/captain had over 8000 flight hours. [0] Look at Ethiopian Airlines own job postings![1] >Qualifications: Must hold a current and valid JAA/FAA or ICAO ATPL/CPL A current 777 type rating Minimum Flight time *3500 hours* jet time *2500 hours* Pilot in command on jet aircraft Command time in excess of 500 hours on 777 [0]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-relations/press-release/detail/1080 https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-rela... [1]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy
  - oldgradstudent 8y ago
    Is this clear enough? https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=14838 https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsI... These are the minimum FAA requirements. Major airlines have higher requirements, while regionals have lower requirements. The US is unique because flying is far more affordable and common, especially when compared to the alternative of going to a university, even a reasonable state school.
    - 24gttghh 8y ago
      They only introduced that rule in 2013 as your link states, and it doesn't seem like most other places bother with such high requirements.[0] "On Ethiopian flight 302, the first officer may have had just 200 hours, but the captain, a 29-year old career Ethiopian Airlines pilot, had a very respectable 8,000 hours under his belt. There’s no indication, at this point in the investigation, that crew experience may have been a factor in the accident." I still don't see why you are harping on the experience angle when there seems to be much more evidence that the weird Boeing "secret" anti-stall system(MCAS) seems to be in play, since Boeing is trying to come up with an update for it...Also the general maintenance issues that seems to have occurred before at least one of the flights where the same issue was noted and/or the faulty sensors were ignored by groundcrew. [0]https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-much-experience-do-pilots-need/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-much-experience-do-pilots-... And FTA this thread is about: "French air accident investigation agency BEA said on Tuesday the flight data recorder in the Ethiopian crash that killed 157 people showed “clear similarities” to the Lion Air disaster. Since the Lion Air crash, Boeing has been pursuing a software upgrade to change how much authority is given to the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, a new anti-stall system developed for the 737 MAX. Some U.S. pilots have complained they were unaware of the new system, which is mentioned in the index of the aircraft’s full manual but not the text, according to a version seen by Reuters. Airlines have some discretion to customize the manuals. The cause of the Lion Air crash has not been determined, but the preliminary report mentioned the Boeing system, a faulty, recently replaced sensor and the airline’s maintenance and training." So yeah, blame the flight crew... /s
- kkarakk 8y ago
  can't be right, airlines literally don't hire pilots with lower than required hours. they'd be sued into oblivion and their license to operate taken away if they did that. it's an ironclad rule afaik
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
michaelt 8y ago
Hypothetically, aspiring US pilots could be required to spend years flying cargo, or working abroad, or in the military, or paying $$$$ for training, to rack up the required flight hours to be eligible for US passenger jobs. (I have no idea if this is the case or not - I'm merely saying it's possible)
- zcid 8y ago
  Typically, it takes at least 2 years for a pilot to earn enough hours to get hired on at a regional airline in the US. Add on several more years of jet experience before you can be qualified to work at a major airline or one of the larger cargo companies like UPS or FedEx.
azeotropic 8y ago
The U.S. is more wealthy and has a large private aviation community because private individuals can afford to buy and are permitted to fly their own small planes. As s result, it is easier for Americans to build up experience as aviators before going to work for an airline.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
  The other thing the US has is the 2 largest airforces in the world (The US Air Force, and the US Navy). This provides the opportunity for pilots to get a lot of flight time in jets without having to pay for it via flights schools or private aviation.
05 8y ago
Training in simulators costs money. Just flying doesn’t prepare you for dealing with these rare situations, because most of it is autopilot/by the book.
ericfrenkiel 8y ago
I think your comment is out of line to accuse someone of racism. This airline has a bad record of aviation accidents, yet you would rather censure someone for simply not sharing your opinion.
- matt4077 8y ago
  No, these airlines do not have bad safety records, unless you go back into ancient history. They are licensed to fly anywhere in the world. Their safety rating is better than easyjet, Ryanair, Spirit, and Southwest: https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-tool/ https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-tool/ The continued insistence against easily checked facts proves my point.

oldgradstudent 8y ago

The first officer in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 was confirmed to have 350 flight hours, which is much lower then the US standard for the large carriers. Southwest Airlines, for example requires: > Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered. https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications Delta requires: > Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time. > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turboprop or turbofan time. > 90% of the flight time logged in powered lift category aircraft (e.g. AV-8B, F-35B, and V-22) will be credited to the Delta Air Lines 1,000 hour fixed wing turboprop/turbofan requirement. > Minimum of 250 hours PIC in an aircraft categorized as an airplane. > The flight time logged in a powered lift category aircraft cannot be credited towards PIC aircraft time in accordance with 14 C.F.R. 61.159. > Minimum of 50 hours of fixed wing multi-engine time. https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm United requires: > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed-wing turbine time https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.ht... The European carriers, on the other hand, do not have such strict requirements.

24gttghh 8y ago
These are all pilot qualifications. The first officer was new and had ~200 flight hours. The pilot/captain had over 8000 flight hours. [0] Look at Ethiopian Airlines own job postings![1] >Qualifications: Must hold a current and valid JAA/FAA or ICAO ATPL/CPL A current 777 type rating Minimum Flight time *3500 hours* jet time *2500 hours* Pilot in command on jet aircraft Command time in excess of 500 hours on 777 [0]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-relations/press-release/detail/1080 https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-rela... [1]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  Is this clear enough? https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsId=14838 https://www.faa.gov/news/press_releases/news_story.cfm?newsI... These are the minimum FAA requirements. Major airlines have higher requirements, while regionals have lower requirements. The US is unique because flying is far more affordable and common, especially when compared to the alternative of going to a university, even a reasonable state school.
  - 24gttghh 8y ago
    They only introduced that rule in 2013 as your link states, and it doesn't seem like most other places bother with such high requirements.[0] "On Ethiopian flight 302, the first officer may have had just 200 hours, but the captain, a 29-year old career Ethiopian Airlines pilot, had a very respectable 8,000 hours under his belt. There’s no indication, at this point in the investigation, that crew experience may have been a factor in the accident." I still don't see why you are harping on the experience angle when there seems to be much more evidence that the weird Boeing "secret" anti-stall system(MCAS) seems to be in play, since Boeing is trying to come up with an update for it...Also the general maintenance issues that seems to have occurred before at least one of the flights where the same issue was noted and/or the faulty sensors were ignored by groundcrew. [0]https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-much-experience-do-pilots-need/ https://thepointsguy.com/news/how-much-experience-do-pilots-... And FTA this thread is about: "French air accident investigation agency BEA said on Tuesday the flight data recorder in the Ethiopian crash that killed 157 people showed “clear similarities” to the Lion Air disaster. Since the Lion Air crash, Boeing has been pursuing a software upgrade to change how much authority is given to the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, a new anti-stall system developed for the 737 MAX. Some U.S. pilots have complained they were unaware of the new system, which is mentioned in the index of the aircraft’s full manual but not the text, according to a version seen by Reuters. Airlines have some discretion to customize the manuals. The cause of the Lion Air crash has not been determined, but the preliminary report mentioned the Boeing system, a faulty, recently replaced sensor and the airline’s maintenance and training." So yeah, blame the flight crew... /s
kkarakk 8y ago
can't be right, airlines literally don't hire pilots with lower than required hours. they'd be sued into oblivion and their license to operate taken away if they did that. it's an ironclad rule afaik
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

michaelt 8y ago

Hypothetically, aspiring US pilots could be required to spend years flying cargo, or working abroad, or in the military, or paying $$$$ for training, to rack up the required flight hours to be eligible for US passenger jobs. (I have no idea if this is the case or not - I'm merely saying it's possible)

zcid 8y ago
Typically, it takes at least 2 years for a pilot to earn enough hours to get hired on at a regional airline in the US. Add on several more years of jet experience before you can be qualified to work at a major airline or one of the larger cargo companies like UPS or FedEx.

azeotropic 8y ago

The U.S. is more wealthy and has a large private aviation community because private individuals can afford to buy and are permitted to fly their own small planes. As s result, it is easier for Americans to build up experience as aviators before going to work for an airline.

RcouF1uZ4gsC 8y ago
The other thing the US has is the 2 largest airforces in the world (The US Air Force, and the US Navy). This provides the opportunity for pilots to get a lot of flight time in jets without having to pay for it via flights schools or private aviation.

05 8y ago

Training in simulators costs money. Just flying doesn’t prepare you for dealing with these rare situations, because most of it is autopilot/by the book.

ericfrenkiel 8y ago

I think your comment is out of line to accuse someone of racism. This airline has a bad record of aviation accidents, yet you would rather censure someone for simply not sharing your opinion.

matt4077 8y ago
No, these airlines do not have bad safety records, unless you go back into ancient history. They are licensed to fly anywhere in the world. Their safety rating is better than easyjet, Ryanair, Spirit, and Southwest: https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-tool/ https://www.airlineratings.com/safety-rating-tool/ The continued insistence against easily checked facts proves my point.