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One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In th

One of the factors that has been quickly glossed over is the low level of experience of some of the pilots in both the Indonesian and Ethopian accidents. In the USA, due to much higher levels of experience pilots have been correcting for the MCAS actions effectively and complaining about it to NASA (in order to avoid being branded as whistle-blowers by their airlines).

deleted 8y ago
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dannyw 8y ago
I’d be highly concerned of the competency of any pilot who complains to NASA.
- mhandley 8y ago
  NASA runs the airline safety reporting system ASRS, which is where pilots anonymously report potential safety issues.
- taejo 8y ago
  NASA is indeed where pilots confidentially report aviation safety problems: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/ https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/ It is, after all, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
  - LoSboccacc 8y ago
    Bob Ebeling should have used that for the shuttle.
- tialaramex 8y ago
  You think people using the provided incident reporting anonymity scheme are... Incompetent? Or you yourself are actually incompetent because you thought that you should comment about this without knowing that NASA runs ASRS which is exactly what this is for?
Arn_Thor 8y ago
That has not been glossed over at all, people bring it up all the time, especially in reference to Lion Air. But it's not a unifying factor in the two cases. Ethiopian Airlines has a very good safety track record and I have not seen it reported that they operate with more inexperienced pilots than elsewhere.
duncans 8y ago
Wasn't at least one of the Ethiopian Air guys quite experienced?
- disillusioned 8y ago
  The pilot had 8000 hours...
matt4077 8y ago
How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die before age 40? This stereotype of dingy third-world airlines with incompetent, untrained pilots borders on racism. At the very least, one should notice that flying the world’s newest airliner in significant numbers is incompatible with one‘s preconceptions.
- oldgradstudent 8y ago
  The first officer in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 was confirmed to have 350 flight hours, which is much lower then the US standard for the large carriers. Southwest Airlines, for example requires: > Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered. https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications Delta requires: > Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time. > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turboprop or turbofan time. > 90% of the flight time logged in powered lift category aircraft (e.g. AV-8B, F-35B, and V-22) will be credited to the Delta Air Lines 1,000 hour fixed wing turboprop/turbofan requirement. > Minimum of 250 hours PIC in an aircraft categorized as an airplane. > The flight time logged in a powered lift category aircraft cannot be credited towards PIC aircraft time in accordance with 14 C.F.R. 61.159. > Minimum of 50 hours of fixed wing multi-engine time. https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm United requires: > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed-wing turbine time https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.ht... The European carriers, on the other hand, do not have such strict requirements.
  - 24gttghh 8y ago
    These are all pilot qualifications. The first officer was new and had ~200 flight hours. The pilot/captain had over 8000 flight hours. [0] Look at Ethiopian Airlines own job postings![1] >Qualifications: Must hold a current and valid JAA/FAA or ICAO ATPL/CPL A current 777 type rating Minimum Flight time *3500 hours* jet time *2500 hours* Pilot in command on jet aircraft Command time in excess of 500 hours on 777 [0]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-relations/press-release/detail/1080 https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-rela... [1]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy
growlist 8y ago
So in other words according to your theory, Boeing has made a plane that is only safe in the hands of the best pilots? Better start cancelling thousands of orders then since by definition, at least 50% of pilots will be below average.
- achandlerwhite 8y ago
  Should be fine for any pilot qualified by US standards. Not sure about other countries. I have anecdotally heard that some other countries train pilots as "button pushers" without really understanding what the plane is doing or having a solid understanding of flight principles.
tuna-piano 8y ago
I don’t think there have been any reported cases where US pilots dealt with similiar MCAS issues. In fact, I’ve only seen three likely MCAS repeated nose down situations: the Lion air flight prior to the crash, the Lion crash, and the Ethiopian crash. There was only one report I’ve seen in the NASA database related to the MAX going nose down. However, it doesn’t even appear that event was related to MCAS, as MCAS supposedly is only enabled in manual mode, and that situation happened when the plane was in autopilot. Further, the plane only dove once, not repeatedly as in Lion and Ethiopian.
AceyMan 8y ago
A significant difference, too, is the US operators opted for the supplemental alerting package (a paid upgrade) for MCAS (see "AOA DISAGREE"). This might have made the difference on the two accident aircraft had they had that same package.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

dannyw 8y ago

I’d be highly concerned of the competency of any pilot who complains to NASA.

mhandley 8y ago
NASA runs the airline safety reporting system ASRS, which is where pilots anonymously report potential safety issues.
taejo 8y ago
NASA is indeed where pilots confidentially report aviation safety problems: https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/ https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/ It is, after all, the National Aeronautics and Space Administration.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago
  Bob Ebeling should have used that for the shuttle.
tialaramex 8y ago
You think people using the provided incident reporting anonymity scheme are... Incompetent? Or you yourself are actually incompetent because you thought that you should comment about this without knowing that NASA runs ASRS which is exactly what this is for?

Arn_Thor 8y ago

That has not been glossed over at all, people bring it up all the time, especially in reference to Lion Air. But it's not a unifying factor in the two cases. Ethiopian Airlines has a very good safety track record and I have not seen it reported that they operate with more inexperienced pilots than elsewhere.

duncans 8y ago

Wasn't at least one of the Ethiopian Air guys quite experienced?

disillusioned 8y ago
The pilot had 8000 hours...

matt4077 8y ago

How would it even be possible for US pilots to sustainably have „much higher levels of experience“? Do non-US pilots fly only two days a week? Do they all die before age 40? This stereotype of dingy third-world airlines with incompetent, untrained pilots borders on racism. At the very least, one should notice that flying the world’s newest airliner in significant numbers is incompatible with one‘s preconceptions.

oldgradstudent 8y ago
The first officer in Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 was confirmed to have 350 flight hours, which is much lower then the US standard for the large carriers. Southwest Airlines, for example requires: > Flight Experience: 2,500 hours total or 1,500 hours Turbine total. Additionally, a minimum of 1,000 hours in Turbine aircraft as the Pilot in Command* is preferred. Southwest considers only Pilot time in fixed-wing aircraft. This specifically excludes simulator, WSO, RIO, FE, NAV, EWO, etc. "Other Time" will not be considered. https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications https://swa.pilotcredentials.com/index.php?a=qualifications Delta requires: > Minimum of 1,500 hours of total documented flight time. > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed wing turboprop or turbofan time. > 90% of the flight time logged in powered lift category aircraft (e.g. AV-8B, F-35B, and V-22) will be credited to the Delta Air Lines 1,000 hour fixed wing turboprop/turbofan requirement. > Minimum of 250 hours PIC in an aircraft categorized as an airplane. > The flight time logged in a powered lift category aircraft cannot be credited towards PIC aircraft time in accordance with 14 C.F.R. 61.159. > Minimum of 50 hours of fixed wing multi-engine time. https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm https://www.deltajobs.net/pilot_qualifications.htm United requires: > Minimum of 1,000 hours of fixed-wing turbine time https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.html https://www.united.com/ual/en/us/fly/company/career/pilot.ht... The European carriers, on the other hand, do not have such strict requirements.
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  These are all pilot qualifications. The first officer was new and had ~200 flight hours. The pilot/captain had over 8000 flight hours. [0] Look at Ethiopian Airlines own job postings![1] >Qualifications: Must hold a current and valid JAA/FAA or ICAO ATPL/CPL A current 777 type rating Minimum Flight time *3500 hours* jet time *2500 hours* Pilot in command on jet aircraft Command time in excess of 500 hours on 777 [0]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-relations/press-release/detail/1080 https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/media/media-rela... [1]https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy https://www.ethiopianairlines.com/corporate/careers/vacancy

growlist 8y ago

So in other words according to your theory, Boeing has made a plane that is only safe in the hands of the best pilots? Better start cancelling thousands of orders then since by definition, at least 50% of pilots will be below average.

achandlerwhite 8y ago
Should be fine for any pilot qualified by US standards. Not sure about other countries. I have anecdotally heard that some other countries train pilots as "button pushers" without really understanding what the plane is doing or having a solid understanding of flight principles.

tuna-piano 8y ago

I don’t think there have been any reported cases where US pilots dealt with similiar MCAS issues. In fact, I’ve only seen three likely MCAS repeated nose down situations: the Lion air flight prior to the crash, the Lion crash, and the Ethiopian crash. There was only one report I’ve seen in the NASA database related to the MAX going nose down. However, it doesn’t even appear that event was related to MCAS, as MCAS supposedly is only enabled in manual mode, and that situation happened when the plane was in autopilot. Further, the plane only dove once, not repeatedly as in Lion and Ethiopian.

AceyMan 8y ago

A significant difference, too, is the US operators opted for the supplemental alerting package (a paid upgrade) for MCAS (see "AOA DISAGREE"). This might have made the difference on the two accident aircraft had they had that same package.