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So if I understand you correctly, rather than answering the "how do I find an engineer" question posed by the OP, you are instead suggesting that unless you are

So if I understand you correctly, rather than answering the "how do I find an engineer" question posed by the OP, you are instead suggesting that unless you are a very successful in the business world you should just forget it. Is that what you meant? If so, it kinda contradicts the whole HN vibe, don'tcha think? If everyone insisted they only work with the successful cream of the crop, then it would be the same handful of people working together all the time & the little guy would never get a chance. Look at it this way, what if every seed capital & VC fund required you to already be successful before they'd talk to you? Btw, I know plenty of business people with only one of the things listed in your toolkit who are nonetheless very competent people who I'd be glad to work with and who are most certainly not full of shit. It sounds like you've been burned in the past, but don't let that color your opinion of all non-technical business folk.

justin_vanw 16y ago
So what do your friends bring to the table? Why would any top-notch engineer want to partner with someone who has no network, and can't sell? What will they be doing all day to earn half or more of the profits of the company? Or do your friends have money, but no knowledge of the industry they intend to start a company in, no network, and no sales skills? Or do they suck at sales, have no network and no money, but really know the industry? Who's going to pay for servers, the engineer who is also giving up thousands and thousands of dollars in opportunity costs? Who's going to get them in the door to do their terrible sales pitch to potential customers? Non-technical business people have to be ready to hit the ground running just as hard as the technical people. Having amazing business people really is half of a successful technology company. As a result, having shitty business people basically ruins your chances. Finally, to address your point, how do you think you get a meeting with VCs? You just show up at their door and they cut you a check? Either you have an in with them through your network, or you have to sell them on your idea. But you say your friends only have one of (money, network, knowledge, sales skills). So, if they have the network they can get in the door, but not get any VC money, or if they have sales skills they can get the deal but can't get in the door. However you slice it up, it's fail. No, I don't think this conflicts at all with the HN vibe. HN is HackerNews. Paul Graham was writing books on Common-Lisp well before he got into the entrepreneurship game. If anything, HN is about giving awesome technical people the skills they need in business, not hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute (not that all business people fall into that category at all, but I'd wager all the ones who are trolling the internet to find people to do work on their 'great idea' do fall into it).
- MrFlibble 16y ago
  I don't know if it reads back to you the way I read it, but your descriptions sound like anyone less than a business superstar is a failure. They are either amazing or shitty with no in-between, which is not the case in the real world. It seems like your ideal leans more towards working with people who by your descriptions sound like they could just as easily hire you as partner with you. Obviously you know your stuff and have been in the tech game a long time & have likely seen/dealt with some ridiculous shit. Conversely I've had a few crazy run-ins on the other side, including having a coder extraordinaire bailing halfway through a paid gig taking much of the code with him (lesson learned). The trick is to not let that prejudice one's views, which is often not so easy. So I think perhaps I should clarify on my friend example using one friend in particular. This fellow made 6 figures for many years, opened restaurants, tanning salons, real estate ventures... things that are not technology based. He built himself up from nothing and eventually transitioned to an attempt in an industry which was new to him. He did well there too even though none of those years of experience, contacts or sales & networking applied to the new industry. He just had drive to make it work. Regarding your VC comment, this same friend's story applies to that as well. He entered this new industry and within months had developed a network of investors by sheer determination and perseverance. So I guess the question to you is would you discount someone who is passionate and works their ass off just because he doesn't have the network or background specifically in the tech field? Some people are ready to "hit the ground running" as you say, even if it isn't in their area of strength. I've found these types are usually great to work with and are go-getters in any field, and if the project is their baby, they work even harder. So back to the beginning of this whole conversation. We all start somewhere, we all make connections from reaching out, so why do you find replying to non-technical business folk to be an exercise in "hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute"? Sure it may go nowhere, but maybe it could lead to a great venture, you never know.
  - justin_vanw 16y ago
    Obviously everyone starts somewhere. At some point Steve Jobs was just a dude hocking do it yourself circuit boards out of a garage, after all. If you know the person, and you know they have what it takes and you believe in them, then I would say go for it. However, if you take the group of all people with 'a great idea', the percentage who actually have any chance at all is so low that it is not worth the time to listen to them. Simply put, if the expected value of listening to someone's idea (whom you have no other information about) is X, the cost in time and attention just to listen to them is some large multiple of X. I obviously believe that the multiple of X is so great that it is not only optimal to not bother to hear what they are saying, but it is actually profitable to actively discourage them. Now, if you have more information about the person, such as your friend, then the prior probability that they will not be wasting your time goes way, way up. It is always worthwhile to take the time to hear out someone you have reason to believe is amazing. The other things I listed in the 'toolkit' were things that make that prior probability high enough that it is worth actively considering dropping what up to now has been your best bet (that is, what you've been working on for months probably) and jumping to whatever they've got cooking. It still probably won't be worth it, but at least there is a good enough chance they aren't just blowing smoke. It's really not complicated. If someone is just starting out, they should partner up with other people who are just starting out. It's only fair, they can jump into it together and take the same risks with each other. If they wan't other people to give up something great, either what they have going now or in lost wages, they have to provide a good enough track record that the expected payout of working with them is not only higher than the alternative, but also high enough that it makes it worth the additional risk.

justin_vanw 16y ago

So what do your friends bring to the table? Why would any top-notch engineer want to partner with someone who has no network, and can't sell? What will they be doing all day to earn half or more of the profits of the company? Or do your friends have money, but no knowledge of the industry they intend to start a company in, no network, and no sales skills? Or do they suck at sales, have no network and no money, but really know the industry? Who's going to pay for servers, the engineer who is also giving up thousands and thousands of dollars in opportunity costs? Who's going to get them in the door to do their terrible sales pitch to potential customers? Non-technical business people have to be ready to hit the ground running just as hard as the technical people. Having amazing business people really is half of a successful technology company. As a result, having shitty business people basically ruins your chances. Finally, to address your point, how do you think you get a meeting with VCs? You just show up at their door and they cut you a check? Either you have an in with them through your network, or you have to sell them on your idea. But you say your friends only have one of (money, network, knowledge, sales skills). So, if they have the network they can get in the door, but not get any VC money, or if they have sales skills they can get the deal but can't get in the door. However you slice it up, it's fail. No, I don't think this conflicts at all with the HN vibe. HN is HackerNews. Paul Graham was writing books on Common-Lisp well before he got into the entrepreneurship game. If anything, HN is about giving awesome technical people the skills they need in business, not hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute (not that all business people fall into that category at all, but I'd wager all the ones who are trolling the internet to find people to do work on their 'great idea' do fall into it).

MrFlibble 16y ago
I don't know if it reads back to you the way I read it, but your descriptions sound like anyone less than a business superstar is a failure. They are either amazing or shitty with no in-between, which is not the case in the real world. It seems like your ideal leans more towards working with people who by your descriptions sound like they could just as easily hire you as partner with you. Obviously you know your stuff and have been in the tech game a long time & have likely seen/dealt with some ridiculous shit. Conversely I've had a few crazy run-ins on the other side, including having a coder extraordinaire bailing halfway through a paid gig taking much of the code with him (lesson learned). The trick is to not let that prejudice one's views, which is often not so easy. So I think perhaps I should clarify on my friend example using one friend in particular. This fellow made 6 figures for many years, opened restaurants, tanning salons, real estate ventures... things that are not technology based. He built himself up from nothing and eventually transitioned to an attempt in an industry which was new to him. He did well there too even though none of those years of experience, contacts or sales & networking applied to the new industry. He just had drive to make it work. Regarding your VC comment, this same friend's story applies to that as well. He entered this new industry and within months had developed a network of investors by sheer determination and perseverance. So I guess the question to you is would you discount someone who is passionate and works their ass off just because he doesn't have the network or background specifically in the tech field? Some people are ready to "hit the ground running" as you say, even if it isn't in their area of strength. I've found these types are usually great to work with and are go-getters in any field, and if the project is their baby, they work even harder. So back to the beginning of this whole conversation. We all start somewhere, we all make connections from reaching out, so why do you find replying to non-technical business folk to be an exercise in "hand holding wanna-be entrepreneurs who can't contribute"? Sure it may go nowhere, but maybe it could lead to a great venture, you never know.
- justin_vanw 16y ago
  Obviously everyone starts somewhere. At some point Steve Jobs was just a dude hocking do it yourself circuit boards out of a garage, after all. If you know the person, and you know they have what it takes and you believe in them, then I would say go for it. However, if you take the group of all people with 'a great idea', the percentage who actually have any chance at all is so low that it is not worth the time to listen to them. Simply put, if the expected value of listening to someone's idea (whom you have no other information about) is X, the cost in time and attention just to listen to them is some large multiple of X. I obviously believe that the multiple of X is so great that it is not only optimal to not bother to hear what they are saying, but it is actually profitable to actively discourage them. Now, if you have more information about the person, such as your friend, then the prior probability that they will not be wasting your time goes way, way up. It is always worthwhile to take the time to hear out someone you have reason to believe is amazing. The other things I listed in the 'toolkit' were things that make that prior probability high enough that it is worth actively considering dropping what up to now has been your best bet (that is, what you've been working on for months probably) and jumping to whatever they've got cooking. It still probably won't be worth it, but at least there is a good enough chance they aren't just blowing smoke. It's really not complicated. If someone is just starting out, they should partner up with other people who are just starting out. It's only fair, they can jump into it together and take the same risks with each other. If they wan't other people to give up something great, either what they have going now or in lost wages, they have to provide a good enough track record that the expected payout of working with them is not only higher than the alternative, but also high enough that it makes it worth the additional risk.