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It is possible to be wrong in good faith, yes. That doesn't make it not wrong. I don't think anyone accused the students of arguing in bad faith. I think they

by imgabe 8y ago

It is possible to be wrong in good faith, yes. That doesn't make it not wrong. I don't think anyone accused the students of arguing in bad faith. I think they sincerely believe what they were saying. I also think they were wrong.

geofft 8y ago
Bad faith doesn't require lack of sincere belief. Perhaps the most common form of bad-faith disagreement is when you disagree with someone and are unwilling to really listen to what they say for fear that it would cause you to rethink your current sincere belief. What I'm saying is that it seems likely the students understand exactly what was written in that latter and how the argument in that letter could be steelmanned, and that they also understand their own point of view in depth, and they should not be dismissed as people so wrong as to be un-serious debaters.
- simonh 8y ago
  I don’t really see how, if you sincerely believe something, you can be afraid to listen to an argument in case it dissuades you of it. That seems to me to be a blatant disregard for whether what you ‘believe’ is actually true. Furthermore it is also a blatant disregard for whether what you think someone means is actually what they are saying. That really is bad faith in a pretty raw form.
  - DanBC 8y ago
    > if you sincerely believe something, you can be afraid to listen to an argument in case it dissuades you of it. I know the holocaust happened. I don't need to listen to holocaust deniers talking about the size of the ovens or any of their other talking points. I know I'm not going to change their mind; I know they're not going to change my mind. I also know that my society is better because we teach children about these points of denial without suggesting that they're true.
    - yostrovs 8y ago
      Relatives of Holocaust victims still visit Holocaust museums though they, like you, know what happened. Some topics have to continuously be investigated for them to remain true, relevant, and impactful. You don't want those topics to rest on handed down truths, for they will become archaic and will seem distant and irrelevant.
      - DanBC 8y ago
        Yes, but we don't allow these conversations to be driven by Holocaust deniers.
        yostrovs 8y ago
        There's nobody to "allow these conversations". The conversations actually happen all the time and it's a good thing they do.
        geofft 8y ago
        Most conversations about the Holocaust do not involve Holocaust deniers, and it is in fact quite common policy for people hosting such conversations (e.g., museums) to disallow deniers.
        simonh 8y ago
        Apart from anything else, how are you going to persuade someone if you don't talk to them? A lot of people that get pulled into these things don't have access to reasoned counter-points. They might have just searched for something on Youtube and got sucked down a fringe kook rabbit hole by the recommendation engine.
    - simonh 8y ago
      Of course, but you’re not afraid of being persuaded to become a holocaust denier. You don’t want to debate them for other, perfectly sensible reasons.

by imgabe 8y ago

geofft 8y ago

Bad faith doesn't require lack of sincere belief. Perhaps the most common form of bad-faith disagreement is when you disagree with someone and are unwilling to really listen to what they say for fear that it would cause you to rethink your current sincere belief. What I'm saying is that it seems likely the students understand exactly what was written in that latter and how the argument in that letter could be steelmanned, and that they also understand their own point of view in depth, and they should not be dismissed as people so wrong as to be un-serious debaters.

simonh 8y ago
I don’t really see how, if you sincerely believe something, you can be afraid to listen to an argument in case it dissuades you of it. That seems to me to be a blatant disregard for whether what you ‘believe’ is actually true. Furthermore it is also a blatant disregard for whether what you think someone means is actually what they are saying. That really is bad faith in a pretty raw form.
- DanBC 8y ago
  > if you sincerely believe something, you can be afraid to listen to an argument in case it dissuades you of it. I know the holocaust happened. I don't need to listen to holocaust deniers talking about the size of the ovens or any of their other talking points. I know I'm not going to change their mind; I know they're not going to change my mind. I also know that my society is better because we teach children about these points of denial without suggesting that they're true.
  - yostrovs 8y ago
    Relatives of Holocaust victims still visit Holocaust museums though they, like you, know what happened. Some topics have to continuously be investigated for them to remain true, relevant, and impactful. You don't want those topics to rest on handed down truths, for they will become archaic and will seem distant and irrelevant.
    - DanBC 8y ago
      Yes, but we don't allow these conversations to be driven by Holocaust deniers.
      - yostrovs 8y ago
        There's nobody to "allow these conversations". The conversations actually happen all the time and it's a good thing they do.
        geofft 8y ago
        Most conversations about the Holocaust do not involve Holocaust deniers, and it is in fact quite common policy for people hosting such conversations (e.g., museums) to disallow deniers.
        simonh 8y ago
        Apart from anything else, how are you going to persuade someone if you don't talk to them? A lot of people that get pulled into these things don't have access to reasoned counter-points. They might have just searched for something on Youtube and got sucked down a fringe kook rabbit hole by the recommendation engine.
  - simonh 8y ago
    Of course, but you’re not afraid of being persuaded to become a holocaust denier. You don’t want to debate them for other, perfectly sensible reasons.