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This is a bit of a weird take on the situation. I was at Yale when this whole debacle took place. Sure, there were some undergrads that took it too far, but for

This is a bit of a weird take on the situation. I was at Yale when this whole debacle took place. Sure, there were some undergrads that took it too far, but for the vast majority it was simply the straw that broke the camel's back: there have been so many big and small slights over the years that were funneled into this situation. The response to the students legitimate concerns was tone deaf and dismissive which only led to the vindication of the loud and angry. I can believe that the Christakises certainly wanted to be good and empathetic and supportive to their students, however they most certainly failed at it. This self-congratulatory piece does little to inspire faith that they actually considered their own failings in this story. I like the premise of the book, that we are all inherently good, but I am confused by the author's stance when they do not acknowledge any of their own dismissiveness and lack of empathy in the whole situation.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
How can it be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' if it's not a straw and has no mass? You honestly think there is popular legitimacy in student's demand for authoritative policing of Halloween costumes? (Edit: literally putting Yale students, the nations 'best and brightest' under more policing literally than children, high schoolers or other adults who for some crazy reason don't need to have their halloween costumes regulated) This is not a 'yes, but' situation. There are no 'butts'. I'm actually quite shocked to read your comment as I had hoped that most Yale students had common sense and thought of the whole episode as pedantic rubbish.
- krastanov 8y ago
  From your comment I am left to believe we are not talking about the same event? Could you describe what you think happened? Do you think this whole debacle was really over one stupid letter? As I described elsewhere, the letter just started a conversation. The tone deaf responses in that conversation is what escalated the situation.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    The student's concerns about costumes were heard, some advice was given apparently, and that's all any academic organization or otherwise should have to contend with. That's the end of the story. There's no reason for the faculty to have to address it further. Whether or not responses were 'tone deaf' it subjective, and certainly besides the point with respect to anyone being fired. Students who bullied the staff should have been admonished (or possibly expelled), not the other way around.
    - krastanov 8y ago
      The whole costume thing was a minor part of the conversation (and went more or less as you described). It was a convenient chance to start a conversation. Students had legitimate complaints about documented casual racism on campus, and initially they received only dismissal. This is the source of all the anger.
      - doe88 8y ago
        > documented casual racism on campus Please provide any link on this, i'm curious about these problems.
        krastanov 8y ago
        This would be a good start (mostly self reported though, shows significant differences in the experience of some students) https://nursing.yale.edu/gpss-report-race-diversity-inclusion-yale https://nursing.yale.edu/gpss-report-race-diversity-inclusio... This story is rather ridiculous (and it would have been funny if it was an isolated incident, but a subset of the students face this more often than others): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/05/10/a-black-yale-student-fell-asleep-in-her-dorms-common-room-a-white-student-called-police/?utm_term=.7859dd2fed41 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/05/1... YDN from around that time would probably have testimonials.
creato 8y ago
> there have been so many big and small slighs over the years that were funneled into this situation. Can you give some examples?
- krastanov 8y ago
  There are some small things that are problems only because they are consistently happening to just a subpopulation: if only one ethnic group is consistently asked whether they are janitorial staff for instance. It is funny the first time, but it sends a message of "you do not belong" on the tenth time. And then there are big things that thankfully happen less and less often, are dealt with more swiftly, and are less ambiguous (like some more ancient professors making disturbing comments). And then when you get a complete dismissal of your initially polite and well-worded informal complaint... Of course you will get angry, even if anger is unproductive.
  - rambojazz 8y ago
    As an outsider, my initial reaction to this situation was "why the fuck students from one of the best Uni whine over meaningless Halloween costumes? It's university, not kindergarten." But if there is a group of students teasing another group of students all the time, and they won't stop, it's natural that at some point you ask the attention of who has the authority to do something about it; just to make them stop. And if authority won't do anything as well, it's kind of a given that somebody will overreact (either against other students or authority). Anyway, I wasn't there, so I simply speak for my limited understanding of what has happened.
tomlock 8y ago
> I have seen the effects of overidentifying with one’s group and witnessed mass delusions up close Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if the unification efforts or the author are going to be successful if he's putting passages like this in his book.
- diminoten 8y ago
  It's a tautological statement isn't it? "overidentifying" presupposes the effort has gone too far, so he's basically saying "what I deem as too much I believe is too much". No one would disagree with that, how could you? The real statement is, "It's possible to go too far when defending an identity." And, honestly, how could you also not agree with that?
  - tomlock 8y ago
    Actually the implication is he has seen delusion at Yale, which I think is easy to disagree with, especially if you're one of the "deluded".
    - diminoten 8y ago
      That isn't the implication here, no. Overidentifying != delusional.
hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
Can you provide some explanation/details when you say "but for the vast majority it was simply the straw that broke the camel's back: there have been so many big and small slighs over the years that were funneled into this situation." Because honestly I followed the situation extremely closely when it happened, and the only thing I was disgusted by was how an intelligent student body was incapable of looking beyond the tribalism of their position and try to actually understand what the Christakises were saying. So if there is more to the story I'd like to know what it is.
- krastanov 8y ago
  I was disappointed with the extreme reaction of some students, but that was the exception (although that exception was what was seen on YouTube). I am much more disappointed that the people in power that were entrusted with the mentoring of these students (the Christakises were not simply in faculty positions, they were also entrusted with very particular respected mentoring positions at the college) failed to comprehend the complaints of the students. It was not about one stupid email, it was about the consistent dismissal of the small but compounding negative experiences. I am certain you will find as many opinions as there were students, but you can see the examples that I observed in one of the sibling comments.
  - geezerjay 8y ago
    Can you actually provide any concrete example that demonstrates the patter of dismissal that you're repeatedly mentioning? It's starting to sound an awful lot like weasel words to keep insisting on a thesis that's already been put to rest due to the oveewhelming evidence of the contrary.
    - krastanov 8y ago
      These two comments of mine cover some of it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19442868 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19442868 Most of the "overwhelming evidence of the contrary" is the prof trying to pacify overly-angry and overly-emotional students in a YouTube video, without any commentary on the majority of the events and conversations surrounding the debacle. The fact is that the prof did little to fight the casual racism on campus (and their position as "head of college" expects them to deal with problems surrounding bullying/racism/sexism/etc). They simply tried to switch the topic (not maliciously, rather because of obliviousness) to talking about freedom of speech. Most people already agree with them about the freedom of speech topic, so let's try to do something about the casual even oblivious racism on campus.
kodz4 8y ago
Not a "weird" take. Conflict resolution is never simple even when you involve people who know what they are doing. It takes training and a whole lot of discipline to produce good outcomes. Throw people who are untrained into the situation and invite our polarizing media to the event and bad outcomes are more or less guaranteed. Christakis isn't a trained psychologist. I am a fan of his work on network effects and he didn't cause unnecessary further escalation, but he still wasn't the right guy to send into that quad. Send in a Marshall Rosenberg and the outcome would have been different.
mikedilger 8y ago
If you look closely, the agreement students have with Yale does not promise them empathy or emotional support. It promises an education. The idea that someone else's opinion or words 'hurt you' is entirely in your head. I'm told that wise Italian grandmothers tell their grandchildren "what other people think of you is none of your business." You can choose to be completely okay, or you can act like a baby. It's entirely your choice. Once you get that, once you embrace that, it is liberating. You are free of the slavery of other people's opinions. You are free of racism, of elitism, of sexism, of all of that s* because you realise that their opinions are meaningless to you. When it comes to physical actions, that's the line you let nobody cross, and you get the police involved. This is just part of growing up. But don't listen to me, I don't have a horse in this race, I'm not from your country, and I'm not from your generation. I'm just someone far removed from the situation spouting another meaningless opinion. There, see? You really don't care what I think. Good on ya.
- krastanov 8y ago
  This is a bit dishonest (and very self aggrandizing). If you did not care you would not have commented. However I agree, there is no point in caring about the negative comments that someone throws at you if they are just comments. Too bad that usually it is not just comments, rather it is also fewer mentorship opportunities, worse starting salaries, and all the other consequences of racism. And you are wrong about the "agreement students have with Yale". There is supposedly a code of conduct that includes protecting each other's dignity.
- despera 8y ago
  Sooo, basically racism is just a matter of ignoring racists and problem solved. Oh boy.....
  - mikedilger 8y ago
    That's a wild misrepresentaton of what I wrote. I was talking about what people think and say, not what they do. Actions are actionable. You can and should fight racist actions using the legal system. And if the laws aren't good enough, then let's fix them.

sonnyblarney 8y ago

How can it be the 'straw that broke the camel's back' if it's not a straw and has no mass? You honestly think there is popular legitimacy in student's demand for authoritative policing of Halloween costumes? (Edit: literally putting Yale students, the nations 'best and brightest' under more policing literally than children, high schoolers or other adults who for some crazy reason don't need to have their halloween costumes regulated) This is not a 'yes, but' situation. There are no 'butts'. I'm actually quite shocked to read your comment as I had hoped that most Yale students had common sense and thought of the whole episode as pedantic rubbish.

krastanov 8y ago
From your comment I am left to believe we are not talking about the same event? Could you describe what you think happened? Do you think this whole debacle was really over one stupid letter? As I described elsewhere, the letter just started a conversation. The tone deaf responses in that conversation is what escalated the situation.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The student's concerns about costumes were heard, some advice was given apparently, and that's all any academic organization or otherwise should have to contend with. That's the end of the story. There's no reason for the faculty to have to address it further. Whether or not responses were 'tone deaf' it subjective, and certainly besides the point with respect to anyone being fired. Students who bullied the staff should have been admonished (or possibly expelled), not the other way around.
  - krastanov 8y ago
    The whole costume thing was a minor part of the conversation (and went more or less as you described). It was a convenient chance to start a conversation. Students had legitimate complaints about documented casual racism on campus, and initially they received only dismissal. This is the source of all the anger.
    - doe88 8y ago
      > documented casual racism on campus Please provide any link on this, i'm curious about these problems.
      - krastanov 8y ago
        This would be a good start (mostly self reported though, shows significant differences in the experience of some students) https://nursing.yale.edu/gpss-report-race-diversity-inclusion-yale https://nursing.yale.edu/gpss-report-race-diversity-inclusio... This story is rather ridiculous (and it would have been funny if it was an isolated incident, but a subset of the students face this more often than others): https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/05/10/a-black-yale-student-fell-asleep-in-her-dorms-common-room-a-white-student-called-police/?utm_term=.7859dd2fed41 https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/05/1... YDN from around that time would probably have testimonials.

creato 8y ago

> there have been so many big and small slighs over the years that were funneled into this situation. Can you give some examples?

krastanov 8y ago
There are some small things that are problems only because they are consistently happening to just a subpopulation: if only one ethnic group is consistently asked whether they are janitorial staff for instance. It is funny the first time, but it sends a message of "you do not belong" on the tenth time. And then there are big things that thankfully happen less and less often, are dealt with more swiftly, and are less ambiguous (like some more ancient professors making disturbing comments). And then when you get a complete dismissal of your initially polite and well-worded informal complaint... Of course you will get angry, even if anger is unproductive.
- rambojazz 8y ago
  As an outsider, my initial reaction to this situation was "why the fuck students from one of the best Uni whine over meaningless Halloween costumes? It's university, not kindergarten." But if there is a group of students teasing another group of students all the time, and they won't stop, it's natural that at some point you ask the attention of who has the authority to do something about it; just to make them stop. And if authority won't do anything as well, it's kind of a given that somebody will overreact (either against other students or authority). Anyway, I wasn't there, so I simply speak for my limited understanding of what has happened.

tomlock 8y ago

> I have seen the effects of overidentifying with one’s group and witnessed mass delusions up close Yeah, I'm not entirely sure if the unification efforts or the author are going to be successful if he's putting passages like this in his book.

diminoten 8y ago
It's a tautological statement isn't it? "overidentifying" presupposes the effort has gone too far, so he's basically saying "what I deem as too much I believe is too much". No one would disagree with that, how could you? The real statement is, "It's possible to go too far when defending an identity." And, honestly, how could you also not agree with that?
- tomlock 8y ago
  Actually the implication is he has seen delusion at Yale, which I think is easy to disagree with, especially if you're one of the "deluded".
  - diminoten 8y ago
    That isn't the implication here, no. Overidentifying != delusional.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago

Can you provide some explanation/details when you say "but for the vast majority it was simply the straw that broke the camel's back: there have been so many big and small slighs over the years that were funneled into this situation." Because honestly I followed the situation extremely closely when it happened, and the only thing I was disgusted by was how an intelligent student body was incapable of looking beyond the tribalism of their position and try to actually understand what the Christakises were saying. So if there is more to the story I'd like to know what it is.

krastanov 8y ago
I was disappointed with the extreme reaction of some students, but that was the exception (although that exception was what was seen on YouTube). I am much more disappointed that the people in power that were entrusted with the mentoring of these students (the Christakises were not simply in faculty positions, they were also entrusted with very particular respected mentoring positions at the college) failed to comprehend the complaints of the students. It was not about one stupid email, it was about the consistent dismissal of the small but compounding negative experiences. I am certain you will find as many opinions as there were students, but you can see the examples that I observed in one of the sibling comments.
- geezerjay 8y ago
  Can you actually provide any concrete example that demonstrates the patter of dismissal that you're repeatedly mentioning? It's starting to sound an awful lot like weasel words to keep insisting on a thesis that's already been put to rest due to the oveewhelming evidence of the contrary.
  - krastanov 8y ago
    These two comments of mine cover some of it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445027 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19442868 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19442868 Most of the "overwhelming evidence of the contrary" is the prof trying to pacify overly-angry and overly-emotional students in a YouTube video, without any commentary on the majority of the events and conversations surrounding the debacle. The fact is that the prof did little to fight the casual racism on campus (and their position as "head of college" expects them to deal with problems surrounding bullying/racism/sexism/etc). They simply tried to switch the topic (not maliciously, rather because of obliviousness) to talking about freedom of speech. Most people already agree with them about the freedom of speech topic, so let's try to do something about the casual even oblivious racism on campus.

kodz4 8y ago

Not a "weird" take. Conflict resolution is never simple even when you involve people who know what they are doing. It takes training and a whole lot of discipline to produce good outcomes. Throw people who are untrained into the situation and invite our polarizing media to the event and bad outcomes are more or less guaranteed. Christakis isn't a trained psychologist. I am a fan of his work on network effects and he didn't cause unnecessary further escalation, but he still wasn't the right guy to send into that quad. Send in a Marshall Rosenberg and the outcome would have been different.

mikedilger 8y ago

If you look closely, the agreement students have with Yale does not promise them empathy or emotional support. It promises an education. The idea that someone else's opinion or words 'hurt you' is entirely in your head. I'm told that wise Italian grandmothers tell their grandchildren "what other people think of you is none of your business." You can choose to be completely okay, or you can act like a baby. It's entirely your choice. Once you get that, once you embrace that, it is liberating. You are free of the slavery of other people's opinions. You are free of racism, of elitism, of sexism, of all of that s* because you realise that their opinions are meaningless to you. When it comes to physical actions, that's the line you let nobody cross, and you get the police involved. This is just part of growing up. But don't listen to me, I don't have a horse in this race, I'm not from your country, and I'm not from your generation. I'm just someone far removed from the situation spouting another meaningless opinion. There, see? You really don't care what I think. Good on ya.

krastanov 8y ago
This is a bit dishonest (and very self aggrandizing). If you did not care you would not have commented. However I agree, there is no point in caring about the negative comments that someone throws at you if they are just comments. Too bad that usually it is not just comments, rather it is also fewer mentorship opportunities, worse starting salaries, and all the other consequences of racism. And you are wrong about the "agreement students have with Yale". There is supposedly a code of conduct that includes protecting each other's dignity.
despera 8y ago
Sooo, basically racism is just a matter of ignoring racists and problem solved. Oh boy.....
- mikedilger 8y ago
  That's a wild misrepresentaton of what I wrote. I was talking about what people think and say, not what they do. Actions are actionable. You can and should fight racist actions using the legal system. And if the laws aren't good enough, then let's fix them.