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Meh, nah. You can vote to further validate the legitimacy of an existing power structure. But voting, by itself, doesn't necessarily function as an act that reo

Meh, nah. You can vote to further validate the legitimacy of an existing power structure. But voting, by itself, doesn't necessarily function as an act that reorganizes power structures. As an obtuse example, does voting in Russia or Venezuela help to reorganize power? At a certain point those that bestow the gift of voting upon a population also have the ability to limit the actual result of that vote.

solidasparagus 8y ago
Yes, the 2018 election in Venezuela is a major reason that we are looking at a potential transition of power... If no one ever voted, low voter turnout in 2018 would not have sparked an international backlash which has supported the rise of the opposition.
- rjf72 8y ago
  The one and only reason there is a backlash against Venezuela is because the US is exerting its clout. And, in turn, the one and only reason the US cares about Venezuela is because the Venezuelan government dropped the petrodollar in late 2017 (I mention the date to emphasize this event predates the election), swapping to the euro and yuan. The petrodollar plays a major role in sustaining the US economy and consequently moving away from it is a perceived as a direct attack on the US. Other countries that have moved away from the petrodollar include Iraq, Libya, and Iran. Notably - these countries all moved away before being invaded (and Iran has yet to be invaded). In other words, their moving away was not a consequence of our invasions but rather our invasion was a consequence of their dropping the dollar. Saudi Arabia is one of the most belligerent and despotic nations on the planet, but since they keep to the petrodollar like their life depends on it (which it does), we're best friends forever. They even held the chair of the UN human rights council. Great guys, them. There are sham elections, unrepresentative "regimes", and all other sorts of nastiness all throughout the world. Nobody cares. Unless they happen to have something somebody else wants, then it's time to go full-on won't anybody think of the children?
  - a-saleh 8y ago
    Looking at the situation in Venezuela, I do often think about Iran. Like, on the surface, they seem to be in a similar situation geopolitically. I would think, that if Venezuelan regime displayed at least the same level of competency as Iranian, they wouldn't have been in such a mess.
  - xster 8y ago
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-dcemonises-venezuelas-democracy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us... Jimmy Carter: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world." Oh wait, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Venezuela "The proven oil reserves in Venezuela are recognized as the largest in the world, totaling 297 billion barrels (4.72×1010 m3) as of 1 January 2014.", never mind, let's bomb them.
    - JetSpiegel 8y ago
      2012 elections are not what we are talking about here.
- throw2016 8y ago
  Who is 'we'? The Venezuelans already elected their leader. This is a brazen coup attempt by the US to destabilize a democratically elected government and install a puppet oligarchy. The UN rapporteur for Venezuela has a report for anyone interested [1][2]. Venezuela has an advanced election system, better than the US according to many, and all elections have been monitored by multiple global organizations including the carter center. Michael Bolton and other leading US administration officials have already admitted this is about oil. Recognizing a self declared president with no elections and openly orchestrating coups is NOT supporting democracy. This is a violation of the UN charter and a mockery of democracy, rule of law and human rights. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24131&LangID=E https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii5MlQgGXyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii5MlQgGXyk
  - shadowprofile76 8y ago
    Here you're arguing nonsense. Venezuela does not have a functional democracy under the Maduro government and the declaration of Guaido as interim president was absolutely an internal constitutional matter. The National Assembly (the equivalent of the U.S House of representatives basically) of the country, which is the only legislative body in the government where anything like a legitimate political opposition exists, declared Guaido interim president under Article 233 of the country's legal constitution, until a fully supervised and open election could be held due to the grossly rigged nature of the most recent Maduro victory, which had itself been approved by Maduro's own party-loyal replacement to the National Assembly, this replacement being called the "National Constituent Assembly". Maduro had originally disavowed the National Assembly in 2017 in favor of his specially created Constituent National Assembly because the legitimate National Assembly wouldn't allow him to replace the standing constitution of Venezuela with a new one that allowed him to stay in power indefinitely. And you call this shit show an advanced election system? Imagine if Trump tried to replace the U.S constitution, had this blocked by the House, then disavowed and replaced the House with his own special congress of purely loyal republicans, then had a rigged election to make himself president a third time, with the majority of the original, real U.S House declaring him illegitimate as a result, causing him to then declare them liberal-sponsored meddlers and further try to marginalize them.. Well, sort of the same thing in effect, but because the Maduro government is leftist, somehow this is considered perfectly alright and democratic by far too many people...
throw2016 8y ago
Doesn't this apply to the 2 party system in the US too with both republicans and democrats following the same neoliberal policies over the last 40 years? Democracy only works with effective choice and at the moment we seem to have the motions of choice but no real change.
pcmaffey 8y ago
Elizabeth Warren recently proposed an amendment to abolish the electoral college. Would that qualify for you as reorganizing the power structures in a positive way?
- darkpuma 8y ago
  No. Actually getting such an amendment passed might qualify (and won't happen), but proposing an amendment does not.

solidasparagus 8y ago

Yes, the 2018 election in Venezuela is a major reason that we are looking at a potential transition of power... If no one ever voted, low voter turnout in 2018 would not have sparked an international backlash which has supported the rise of the opposition.

rjf72 8y ago
The one and only reason there is a backlash against Venezuela is because the US is exerting its clout. And, in turn, the one and only reason the US cares about Venezuela is because the Venezuelan government dropped the petrodollar in late 2017 (I mention the date to emphasize this event predates the election), swapping to the euro and yuan. The petrodollar plays a major role in sustaining the US economy and consequently moving away from it is a perceived as a direct attack on the US. Other countries that have moved away from the petrodollar include Iraq, Libya, and Iran. Notably - these countries all moved away before being invaded (and Iran has yet to be invaded). In other words, their moving away was not a consequence of our invasions but rather our invasion was a consequence of their dropping the dollar. Saudi Arabia is one of the most belligerent and despotic nations on the planet, but since they keep to the petrodollar like their life depends on it (which it does), we're best friends forever. They even held the chair of the UN human rights council. Great guys, them. There are sham elections, unrepresentative "regimes", and all other sorts of nastiness all throughout the world. Nobody cares. Unless they happen to have something somebody else wants, then it's time to go full-on won't anybody think of the children?
- a-saleh 8y ago
  Looking at the situation in Venezuela, I do often think about Iran. Like, on the surface, they seem to be in a similar situation geopolitically. I would think, that if Venezuelan regime displayed at least the same level of competency as Iranian, they wouldn't have been in such a mess.
- xster 8y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us-dcemonises-venezuelas-democracy https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/03/why-us... Jimmy Carter: "As a matter of fact, of the 92 elections that we've monitored, I would say that the election process in Venezuela is the best in the world." Oh wait, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Venezuela https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Venezuela "The proven oil reserves in Venezuela are recognized as the largest in the world, totaling 297 billion barrels (4.72×1010 m3) as of 1 January 2014.", never mind, let's bomb them.
  - JetSpiegel 8y ago
    2012 elections are not what we are talking about here.
throw2016 8y ago
Who is 'we'? The Venezuelans already elected their leader. This is a brazen coup attempt by the US to destabilize a democratically elected government and install a puppet oligarchy. The UN rapporteur for Venezuela has a report for anyone interested [1][2]. Venezuela has an advanced election system, better than the US according to many, and all elections have been monitored by multiple global organizations including the carter center. Michael Bolton and other leading US administration officials have already admitted this is about oil. Recognizing a self declared president with no elections and openly orchestrating coups is NOT supporting democracy. This is a violation of the UN charter and a mockery of democracy, rule of law and human rights. [1] https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24131&LangID=E https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii5MlQgGXyk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii5MlQgGXyk
- shadowprofile76 8y ago
  Here you're arguing nonsense. Venezuela does not have a functional democracy under the Maduro government and the declaration of Guaido as interim president was absolutely an internal constitutional matter. The National Assembly (the equivalent of the U.S House of representatives basically) of the country, which is the only legislative body in the government where anything like a legitimate political opposition exists, declared Guaido interim president under Article 233 of the country's legal constitution, until a fully supervised and open election could be held due to the grossly rigged nature of the most recent Maduro victory, which had itself been approved by Maduro's own party-loyal replacement to the National Assembly, this replacement being called the "National Constituent Assembly". Maduro had originally disavowed the National Assembly in 2017 in favor of his specially created Constituent National Assembly because the legitimate National Assembly wouldn't allow him to replace the standing constitution of Venezuela with a new one that allowed him to stay in power indefinitely. And you call this shit show an advanced election system? Imagine if Trump tried to replace the U.S constitution, had this blocked by the House, then disavowed and replaced the House with his own special congress of purely loyal republicans, then had a rigged election to make himself president a third time, with the majority of the original, real U.S House declaring him illegitimate as a result, causing him to then declare them liberal-sponsored meddlers and further try to marginalize them.. Well, sort of the same thing in effect, but because the Maduro government is leftist, somehow this is considered perfectly alright and democratic by far too many people...

throw2016 8y ago

Doesn't this apply to the 2 party system in the US too with both republicans and democrats following the same neoliberal policies over the last 40 years? Democracy only works with effective choice and at the moment we seem to have the motions of choice but no real change.

pcmaffey 8y ago

Elizabeth Warren recently proposed an amendment to abolish the electoral college. Would that qualify for you as reorganizing the power structures in a positive way?

darkpuma 8y ago
No. Actually getting such an amendment passed might qualify (and won't happen), but proposing an amendment does not.