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We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments. I have a better relationship with corporations more than governmen

We've passed that sci-fi trope where corporations now wield more authority than governments. I have a better relationship with corporations more than governments. A corporation has never harassed me at an airport when trying to leave. If I don't like MacDonalds I can... stop eating at MacDonalds. If I don't like the services the state provides I have to physically remove myself.

_bxg1 8y ago
If you don't like Google and Apple you can't stop using both of them. If you don't like your local ISP you probably can't stop using it. The free market only gives consumers power over corporations when those consumers - through democracy - keep them from amassing too much power via regulatory bodies. Some people act like the government is the threat, but in a democracy the government is the only thing that truly gives you any power.
- lamarpye 8y ago
  I don't agree. Which is more likely for you to end up in jail? Not buying an iPhone or stop paying your taxes?
  - nilskidoo 8y ago
    I was once served eviction papers by Louisville police over going a full winter without gas in my apartment. It wasn't that I neglected a bill, but that thanks to other obligations I knew I couldn't afford it, so I never opened an account. The landlords understood until the badges showed up, and then wouldn't return my deposit. So I was punished, half a week in jail followed by a couple of homeless months, for not being a customer. It absolutely happens. And debtors prisons are still a thing: https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/ending-modern-day-debtors-prisons https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/...
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I don’t understand why this sort of thing doesn’t permit US citizens to seek asylum as political refugees in slightly less fckdup countries.
      - ativzzz 8y ago
        Because opting out of consumerism isn't a freedom that is recognized officially anywhere, nor is it protected like religion or similar things.
    - vonmoltke 8y ago
      > I was once served eviction papers by Louisville police over going a full winter without gas in my apartment. It wasn't that I neglected a bill, but that thanks to other obligations I knew I couldn't afford it, so I never opened an account. The landlords understood until the badges showed up, and then wouldn't return my deposit. So I was punished, half a week in jail followed by a couple of homeless months, for not being a customer. It absolutely happens. You were not evicted for not being a customer. You were (probably, since I don't know any details of your case) evicted under §156.181 of Louisville's code[1] which requires the capability to heat a dwelling to exist in order for that dwelling to be occupiable. If you have gas heat, that means needing to maintain gas service. You can't waive this requirement by agreement with your landlord because slumlords would abuse that power imbalance to skirt their obligations to keep shit working. [1] http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Kentucky/loukymetro/louisvillejeffersoncountymetrogovernment?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:louisville_ky http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Kentucky/loukymet...
      - nilskidoo 8y ago
        Legal mumbo-jumob guaranteeing customers for utilities companies. It was obviously livable as I was there for 5 months altogether without issue.
    - lamarpye 8y ago
      Your link on debtors prison is referring to people not paying their government imposed fines, which seems the opposite of your point. We forgot/neglected to make the last payment to AT&T when we switched to Comcast. I am not so worried about the police sending me to AT&T jail. My unaddressed car registration is a different story... Not clear what happened in your case, the Gas Company notified the police to evict you? Is the Gas Company following a law in which they are required to tell the police?
  - ionised 8y ago
    The government is the one writing the laws in that case. If there were no government, you would still have the same problems, only now unrestrained corporations would be at the root of those problems. Government and Corps are no different in the end. They all seek to perpetuate and consolidate their power over the plebs.
    - _bxg1 8y ago
      > Government and Corps are no different in the end. The only difference between them is that a democracy, at least in principle, exists to serve the people. Corporations expressly exist only to serve themselves. Democracies may face corruption, but there's not even a principle to be corrupted in the case of corporations; in a free market they have no accountability to society. I suppose you could call co-ops "democratic corporations", in which case governments and corporations are exactly the same, but from that perspective today's corporations would be analogous to oligarchies; they exist to serve their small circle of shareholders. So forgive me if I choose to put my faith in a flawed democratic government instead of oligarchical corporations.
      - ionised 8y ago
        No, I'm with you on this as well. I trust an elected government far more than any for-profit organisation. I'm just saying, both are ripe for abuse by tyrants, plutocrats and oligarchs. Corporations moreso though, for sure.
    - nilskidoo 8y ago
      Politicians are paid to push the laws that they do, and not by taxpayers.
cpursley 8y ago
I'm not sure why you're getting down votes. The police power of the state is multitudes more powerful than corporations (who unless are outright monopolies, will do everything in their power to keep you as a happy customer since you have a choice).
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  Let's have AWS accidentally decrypt a few more dozen terabytes of DoD datum and then decide.
- ionised 8y ago
  The only reason corporations haven't behaved in this way is that at the moment, they can't. Given the power, they absolutely can, and will.
  - cpursley 8y ago
    How would it be in a corporations interest to abuse either their employers or customers in a competitive market? Last time I checked, I have many product and employment choices (with the exception of select industries ruled by cronyism). Last time I checked, Stalinist USSR murdered far more people than McDonalds or Ford.
    - itronitron 8y ago
      >> in a competitive market Not all markets are competitive, and corporations that are operating at the state level are often effectively monopolies.
      - cpursley 8y ago
        I don't disagree. But tech is one of, if not the most, competitive sector right now.
        deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]

_bxg1 8y ago

If you don't like Google and Apple you can't stop using both of them. If you don't like your local ISP you probably can't stop using it. The free market only gives consumers power over corporations when those consumers - through democracy - keep them from amassing too much power via regulatory bodies. Some people act like the government is the threat, but in a democracy the government is the only thing that truly gives you any power.

lamarpye 8y ago
I don't agree. Which is more likely for you to end up in jail? Not buying an iPhone or stop paying your taxes?
- nilskidoo 8y ago
  I was once served eviction papers by Louisville police over going a full winter without gas in my apartment. It wasn't that I neglected a bill, but that thanks to other obligations I knew I couldn't afford it, so I never opened an account. The landlords understood until the badges showed up, and then wouldn't return my deposit. So I was punished, half a week in jail followed by a couple of homeless months, for not being a customer. It absolutely happens. And debtors prisons are still a thing: https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/ending-modern-day-debtors-prisons https://www.aclu.org/issues/smart-justice/sentencing-reform/...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    I don’t understand why this sort of thing doesn’t permit US citizens to seek asylum as political refugees in slightly less fckdup countries.
    - ativzzz 8y ago
      Because opting out of consumerism isn't a freedom that is recognized officially anywhere, nor is it protected like religion or similar things.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    > I was once served eviction papers by Louisville police over going a full winter without gas in my apartment. It wasn't that I neglected a bill, but that thanks to other obligations I knew I couldn't afford it, so I never opened an account. The landlords understood until the badges showed up, and then wouldn't return my deposit. So I was punished, half a week in jail followed by a couple of homeless months, for not being a customer. It absolutely happens. You were not evicted for not being a customer. You were (probably, since I don't know any details of your case) evicted under §156.181 of Louisville's code[1] which requires the capability to heat a dwelling to exist in order for that dwelling to be occupiable. If you have gas heat, that means needing to maintain gas service. You can't waive this requirement by agreement with your landlord because slumlords would abuse that power imbalance to skirt their obligations to keep shit working. [1] http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Kentucky/loukymetro/louisvillejeffersoncountymetrogovernment?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:louisville_ky http://library.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Kentucky/loukymet...
    - nilskidoo 8y ago
      Legal mumbo-jumob guaranteeing customers for utilities companies. It was obviously livable as I was there for 5 months altogether without issue.
  - lamarpye 8y ago
    Your link on debtors prison is referring to people not paying their government imposed fines, which seems the opposite of your point. We forgot/neglected to make the last payment to AT&T when we switched to Comcast. I am not so worried about the police sending me to AT&T jail. My unaddressed car registration is a different story... Not clear what happened in your case, the Gas Company notified the police to evict you? Is the Gas Company following a law in which they are required to tell the police?
- ionised 8y ago
  The government is the one writing the laws in that case. If there were no government, you would still have the same problems, only now unrestrained corporations would be at the root of those problems. Government and Corps are no different in the end. They all seek to perpetuate and consolidate their power over the plebs.
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    > Government and Corps are no different in the end. The only difference between them is that a democracy, at least in principle, exists to serve the people. Corporations expressly exist only to serve themselves. Democracies may face corruption, but there's not even a principle to be corrupted in the case of corporations; in a free market they have no accountability to society. I suppose you could call co-ops "democratic corporations", in which case governments and corporations are exactly the same, but from that perspective today's corporations would be analogous to oligarchies; they exist to serve their small circle of shareholders. So forgive me if I choose to put my faith in a flawed democratic government instead of oligarchical corporations.
    - ionised 8y ago
      No, I'm with you on this as well. I trust an elected government far more than any for-profit organisation. I'm just saying, both are ripe for abuse by tyrants, plutocrats and oligarchs. Corporations moreso though, for sure.
  - nilskidoo 8y ago
    Politicians are paid to push the laws that they do, and not by taxpayers.

cpursley 8y ago

I'm not sure why you're getting down votes. The police power of the state is multitudes more powerful than corporations (who unless are outright monopolies, will do everything in their power to keep you as a happy customer since you have a choice).

nilskidoo 8y ago
Let's have AWS accidentally decrypt a few more dozen terabytes of DoD datum and then decide.
ionised 8y ago
The only reason corporations haven't behaved in this way is that at the moment, they can't. Given the power, they absolutely can, and will.
- cpursley 8y ago
  How would it be in a corporations interest to abuse either their employers or customers in a competitive market? Last time I checked, I have many product and employment choices (with the exception of select industries ruled by cronyism). Last time I checked, Stalinist USSR murdered far more people than McDonalds or Ford.
  - itronitron 8y ago
    >> in a competitive market Not all markets are competitive, and corporations that are operating at the state level are often effectively monopolies.
    - cpursley 8y ago
      I don't disagree. But tech is one of, if not the most, competitive sector right now.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]