4 ms·

Boeing did inform them. Otherwise how would the third pilot have known what to do when he saved the plane?

inferiorhuman 8y ago
Boeing did inform them. Boeing did not inform any of the airlines of MCAS until after the Lion Air crash. Otherwise how would the third pilot have known what to do when he saved the plane? The deadheading pilot recognized a problem with something controlling the stabilizer and went off script. Edit: I love the downvotes from folks who haven't actually read any of the complaints from pilots. Since reading is too hard, have a video from the Washington Post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78
- twblalock 8y ago
  > The deadheading pilot recognized a problem with something controlling the stabilizer and went off script. It's not like he was pushing random buttons. He knew what the system was, he knew that it was likely to be the cause of the problem, and he knew how to disable it. He must have been informed about the system.
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    He knew what the system was How would he know something that was undisclosed? It's not conjecture here, no airlines and no pilots knew of the presence of MCAS before the Lion Air 610 crash.
    - twblalock 8y ago
      The article says that all of the pilots were supposed to know what to do in this situation: > The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize. This guy didn't go off script. It seems like he was the only one of the three who knew the script.
      - inferiorhuman 8y ago
        This guy didn't go off script. It seems like he was the only one of the three who knew the script. The script says to stop if the trim adjustments stop when you counter with manual trim input. MCAS, by design, stops. You can see where MCAS stops trimming nose down on the preliminary Indonesian report (they graph both the fatal flight and the previous flight).
  - jessaustin 8y ago
    Yay he solved the puzzle. The reason that pilots train extensively is so they don't have to solve complex puzzles with terminal penalties while in the air. Most airline passengers prefer that.
- ars 8y ago
  > and went off script From the article: "told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize." Emphasis mine.
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    Yeah, that's part of the checklist for runaway trim (which I've posted in a previous comment). That same checklist says to stop if the stabilizer stops moving after you counter with trim button input. MCAS stops after you counter with the trim buttons.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines regardless of how wrong other commenters or voters may be. That only makes this place worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    As opposed to posting alternative facts and shallow dismissals? HN brings out a lot of knowledgeable folks, but on these 737 related posts the difference between HN and aviation centered forums is pretty stark.
    - dang 8y ago
      Sure, it's not surprising that a forum of specialists would do better. If you know more, it's great if you share what you know so people can learn. Please just follow the site guidelines also.
tyingq 8y ago
Various pilot unions aren't mincing words. Here's one quote: "This is the first description you, as 737 pilots, have seen,” the message from the pilots association at American reads. “It is not in the American Airlines 737 Flight Manual … nor is there a description in the Boeing FCOM (Flight Crew Operations Manual). It will be soon.” It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the jumpseat rider made an educated guess based on some prior experience. Aided by the fact that he didn't have other things to do besides observing.
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the jumpseat rider made an educated guess based on some prior experience. Aided by the fact that he didn't have other things to do besides observing. Or he went back into the cabin and pulled out a copy of the FCOM to do some emergency diagnostic work. https://www.grid.id/read/04966850/deretan-kejanggalan-yang-dirasakan-penumpang-jt-610-rute-denpasar-jakarta-sebelum-pesawat-lion-air-jatuh-pada-senin-pagi https://www.grid.id/read/04966850/deretan-kejanggalan-yang-d...
  - tyingq 8y ago
    The "runaway stabilizer trim" section. Which didn't mention MCAS at all at the time. So, if you guess correctly, you can find the right procedure.
netsharc 8y ago
"New plane, but flies the same as old plane! No retraining necessary!" 2 pilots crash the plane... "Why didn't you learn how to fly with the new system?!?!"

Boeing did inform them. Boeing did not inform any of the airlines of MCAS until after the Lion Air crash. Otherwise how would the third pilot have known what to do when he saved the plane? The deadheading pilot recognized a problem with something controlling the stabilizer and went off script. Edit: I love the downvotes from folks who haven't actually read any of the complaints from pilots. Since reading is too hard, have a video from the Washington Post: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftZ6j8onS78

twblalock 8y ago
> The deadheading pilot recognized a problem with something controlling the stabilizer and went off script. It's not like he was pushing random buttons. He knew what the system was, he knew that it was likely to be the cause of the problem, and he knew how to disable it. He must have been informed about the system.
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  He knew what the system was How would he know something that was undisclosed? It's not conjecture here, no airlines and no pilots knew of the presence of MCAS before the Lion Air 610 crash.
  - twblalock 8y ago
    The article says that all of the pilots were supposed to know what to do in this situation: > The so-called dead-head pilot on the earlier flight from Bali to Jakarta told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize. This guy didn't go off script. It seems like he was the only one of the three who knew the script.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      This guy didn't go off script. It seems like he was the only one of the three who knew the script. The script says to stop if the trim adjustments stop when you counter with manual trim input. MCAS, by design, stops. You can see where MCAS stops trimming nose down on the preliminary Indonesian report (they graph both the fatal flight and the previous flight).
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Yay he solved the puzzle. The reason that pilots train extensively is so they don't have to solve complex puzzles with terminal penalties while in the air. Most airline passengers prefer that.
ars 8y ago
> and went off script From the article: "told the crew to cut power to the motor driving the nose down, according to the people familiar, part of a checklist that all pilots are required to memorize." Emphasis mine.
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  Yeah, that's part of the checklist for runaway trim (which I've posted in a previous comment). That same checklist says to stop if the stabilizer stops moving after you counter with trim button input. MCAS stops after you counter with the trim buttons.
dang 8y ago
Please don't break the site guidelines regardless of how wrong other commenters or voters may be. That only makes this place worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  As opposed to posting alternative facts and shallow dismissals? HN brings out a lot of knowledgeable folks, but on these 737 related posts the difference between HN and aviation centered forums is pretty stark.
  - dang 8y ago
    Sure, it's not surprising that a forum of specialists would do better. If you know more, it's great if you share what you know so people can learn. Please just follow the site guidelines also.

tyingq 8y ago

Various pilot unions aren't mincing words. Here's one quote: "This is the first description you, as 737 pilots, have seen,” the message from the pilots association at American reads. “It is not in the American Airlines 737 Flight Manual … nor is there a description in the Boeing FCOM (Flight Crew Operations Manual). It will be soon.” It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the jumpseat rider made an educated guess based on some prior experience. Aided by the fact that he didn't have other things to do besides observing.

inferiorhuman 8y ago
It doesn't seem unreasonable to me that the jumpseat rider made an educated guess based on some prior experience. Aided by the fact that he didn't have other things to do besides observing. Or he went back into the cabin and pulled out a copy of the FCOM to do some emergency diagnostic work. https://www.grid.id/read/04966850/deretan-kejanggalan-yang-dirasakan-penumpang-jt-610-rute-denpasar-jakarta-sebelum-pesawat-lion-air-jatuh-pada-senin-pagi https://www.grid.id/read/04966850/deretan-kejanggalan-yang-d...
- tyingq 8y ago
  The "runaway stabilizer trim" section. Which didn't mention MCAS at all at the time. So, if you guess correctly, you can find the right procedure.

netsharc 8y ago

"New plane, but flies the same as old plane! No retraining necessary!" 2 pilots crash the plane... "Why didn't you learn how to fly with the new system?!?!"