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> [T]hey got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit. That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpsea

> [T]hey got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit. That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat [...] Am I missing something here? Isn't it normal for off-duty pilots to ride in the jump-seat?

inamberclad 8y ago
Yes. If the seat is unoccupied, airlines will usually let off duty pilots use it to get between different airports. If I'm remembering correctly, it's done for pilots from other airlines as well.
khazhou 8y ago
Sure. I don't think they're implying otherwise. The lucky coincidence is that he happened to be aware of the issue and the fix.
latch 8y ago
Well, you're missing the point of the story which has nothing to do with the frequency of off-duty pilots hitching a ride.
koolba 8y ago
Riding dead head as a pilot is normal. They do it all the time to get back home or wherever their next flight is from. Being in the right place, and happening to know exactly how to deal with what would otherwise kill the pilot and all the passengers, is incredibly fortunate.
- ruytlm 8y ago
  I suppose similar in terms of the right place a the right time would be the QF32 incident[0], where by chance there were two additional pilots in the cockpit; a check captain, and a supervising check captain who was training that check captain. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32
  - inferiorhuman 8y ago
    More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management. Check out the Asiana crash at SFO for an example of where CRM failed hard. The pilot flying in that case was told by the other two pilots in the cockpit how to avoid the crash and he STILL flew a perfectly serviceable plane into the ground in perfect weather on an extremely easy visual approach.
    - twblalock 8y ago
      > More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management. It's good the pilots took advice -- but they should not have needed that advice because they should have been trained to operate the system properly. The whole thing reflects very poorly overall: - The pilots were not trained properly on the new system, and a third pilot who happened to be hitching a ride had to tell them how to operate the plane. - The plane was allowed to fly again the next day despite the malfunction, none of the pilots flying it were properly trained, and everybody died. - The incident was not reported properly at the time, nor was it reported after the same plane had crashed the next day.
      - inferiorhuman 8y ago
        The pilots were not trained properly on the new system It's hard to train for something that doesn't exist according to Boeing The plane was allowed to fly again the next day despite the malfunction The plane was serviced between flights, and assuming that Lion Air actually did what they claimed, Lion Air maintenance followed the Boeing instructions by the book. The incident was not reported properly at the time The malfunction was written up in the maintenance log and the issues were addressed. Unfortunately because Boeing refused to disclose the existence of MCAS the pilots wrote it up both as what they saw (EFS non-op, IAS disagree), and if memory serves, they also suspected the one algorithm they knew about (STS)[1]. 1: https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10295557 https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10295557
JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago
If it's a full flight. Otherwise, they'd be given a seat with passengers.
jnbiche 8y ago
Here again. Downvotes for someone asking a bona fide question. Place has changed. It's a shame. Downvote away...
- dang 8y ago
  Would you please not break the site guidelines like this? Assuming you're right, making HN worse still is no way to go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - jnbiche 8y ago
    Ironically, I almost never got saw your above request because...your comment above was collapsed from the downvotes, even as I perused my own "threads". For some masochistic reason, I clicked the "+2" link from a comment almost two weeks ago, and ... there was your comment and request. It's fairly lucky I saw it at all. So yes, I will try not to break the site guidelines again (I agree this is a clear case of breaking site guidelines). It just makes me sad how HN used to be a place where people could ask genuine questions and not be downvoted to invisibility, for whatever reason.
dingaling 8y ago
> Isn't it normal for off-duty pilots to ride in the jump-seat? Absolutely not, I know several airline pilots and they deadhead in economy seats.

inamberclad 8y ago

Yes. If the seat is unoccupied, airlines will usually let off duty pilots use it to get between different airports. If I'm remembering correctly, it's done for pilots from other airlines as well.

khazhou 8y ago

Sure. I don't think they're implying otherwise. The lucky coincidence is that he happened to be aware of the issue and the fix.

latch 8y ago

Well, you're missing the point of the story which has nothing to do with the frequency of off-duty pilots hitching a ride.

koolba 8y ago

Riding dead head as a pilot is normal. They do it all the time to get back home or wherever their next flight is from. Being in the right place, and happening to know exactly how to deal with what would otherwise kill the pilot and all the passengers, is incredibly fortunate.

ruytlm 8y ago
I suppose similar in terms of the right place a the right time would be the QF32 incident[0], where by chance there were two additional pilots in the cockpit; a check captain, and a supervising check captain who was training that check captain. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_32
- inferiorhuman 8y ago
  More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management. Check out the Asiana crash at SFO for an example of where CRM failed hard. The pilot flying in that case was told by the other two pilots in the cockpit how to avoid the crash and he STILL flew a perfectly serviceable plane into the ground in perfect weather on an extremely easy visual approach.
  - twblalock 8y ago
    > More to the point, this reflects positively on Lion Air because it means that the pilots in the forward facing seats properly took advice into account. This is good crew resource management. It's good the pilots took advice -- but they should not have needed that advice because they should have been trained to operate the system properly. The whole thing reflects very poorly overall: - The pilots were not trained properly on the new system, and a third pilot who happened to be hitching a ride had to tell them how to operate the plane. - The plane was allowed to fly again the next day despite the malfunction, none of the pilots flying it were properly trained, and everybody died. - The incident was not reported properly at the time, nor was it reported after the same plane had crashed the next day.
    - inferiorhuman 8y ago
      The pilots were not trained properly on the new system It's hard to train for something that doesn't exist according to Boeing The plane was allowed to fly again the next day despite the malfunction The plane was serviced between flights, and assuming that Lion Air actually did what they claimed, Lion Air maintenance followed the Boeing instructions by the book. The incident was not reported properly at the time The malfunction was written up in the maintenance log and the issues were addressed. Unfortunately because Boeing refused to disclose the existence of MCAS the pilots wrote it up both as what they saw (EFS non-op, IAS disagree), and if memory serves, they also suspected the one algorithm they knew about (STS)[1]. 1: https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10295557 https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10295557

JMTQp8lwXL 8y ago

If it's a full flight. Otherwise, they'd be given a seat with passengers.

jnbiche 8y ago

Here again. Downvotes for someone asking a bona fide question. Place has changed. It's a shame. Downvote away...

dang 8y ago
Would you please not break the site guidelines like this? Assuming you're right, making HN worse still is no way to go. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jnbiche 8y ago
  Ironically, I almost never got saw your above request because...your comment above was collapsed from the downvotes, even as I perused my own "threads". For some masochistic reason, I clicked the "+2" link from a comment almost two weeks ago, and ... there was your comment and request. It's fairly lucky I saw it at all. So yes, I will try not to break the site guidelines again (I agree this is a clear case of breaking site guidelines). It just makes me sad how HN used to be a place where people could ask genuine questions and not be downvoted to invisibility, for whatever reason.

dingaling 8y ago

> Isn't it normal for off-duty pilots to ride in the jump-seat? Absolutely not, I know several airline pilots and they deadhead in economy seats.