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Higher worker productivity achieved those things, not unions. Those gains so-called 'worker rights' were achieved in countries without unions as well. It's als

Higher worker productivity achieved those things, not unions. Those gains so-called 'worker rights' were achieved in countries without unions as well. It's also unmentioned how much unemployment and misery unions also caused in this narrative.

fwip 8y ago
Higher worker productivity naturally leads to shortened hours? No wonder we've all got 15 hour workweeks now.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  Better be damn sure about that. If you want to live like a worker in the 1850's, you can work 1/5 what they worked.
kennywinker 8y ago
No - higher productivity made it _possible_ but unionized workers fought and died to make it actually happen.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  Who told you that; unions?
mcv 8y ago
What unionless countries achieved these things? It seems to me that workers in countries with unions tend to have far better working conditions than those in countries without unions. The only alternative to unions to get these things is to get them directly enshrined in law, but in most countries that only happened after unions fought for it.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  > What unionless countries achieved these things? It seems to me that workers in countries with unions tend to have far better working conditions than those in countries without union Beware of correlation/causation. Unions that represent the highest earning workers are the strongest, because the strongest workers already have the highest bargaining power and the highest salaries. A modern example of what productivity does to working conditions is in SV, where the unionized workers have less perks than the un-unionized ones. Historically unions are always tied with: import restrictions, protection from competition, minimum wage laws (that dont apply to themselves), unemployment (the best way to increase wages for a union is to cut supply short). As a nice example, Argentina has unions with constitutional level protections since the 50's, and unemployment is up, working conditions are down, poverty is up, import restrictions are up and minimum wage laws are up: result, 40% of the population works under the table, and union workers have some of the highest wages in the country. You will seldom find improving working conditions without notable increase in GDP per capita.
  - notSupplied 8y ago
    Exactly. Look at LA Teachers unions demanding cap on charter schools. Charter school teachers are non-unionized, so this demand harms the pay of non-unionized "outsiders". If they succeed, they can parade the statistic that "Unionized teachers have gained income over non-unionized teachers thanks to the wonderful work of unions", when in fact what they have really done is transfer wealth from outsiders to insiders.

fwip 8y ago

Higher worker productivity naturally leads to shortened hours? No wonder we've all got 15 hour workweeks now.

conanbatt 8y ago
Better be damn sure about that. If you want to live like a worker in the 1850's, you can work 1/5 what they worked.

kennywinker 8y ago

No - higher productivity made it _possible_ but unionized workers fought and died to make it actually happen.

conanbatt 8y ago
Who told you that; unions?

mcv 8y ago

What unionless countries achieved these things? It seems to me that workers in countries with unions tend to have far better working conditions than those in countries without unions. The only alternative to unions to get these things is to get them directly enshrined in law, but in most countries that only happened after unions fought for it.

conanbatt 8y ago
> What unionless countries achieved these things? It seems to me that workers in countries with unions tend to have far better working conditions than those in countries without union Beware of correlation/causation. Unions that represent the highest earning workers are the strongest, because the strongest workers already have the highest bargaining power and the highest salaries. A modern example of what productivity does to working conditions is in SV, where the unionized workers have less perks than the un-unionized ones. Historically unions are always tied with: import restrictions, protection from competition, minimum wage laws (that dont apply to themselves), unemployment (the best way to increase wages for a union is to cut supply short). As a nice example, Argentina has unions with constitutional level protections since the 50's, and unemployment is up, working conditions are down, poverty is up, import restrictions are up and minimum wage laws are up: result, 40% of the population works under the table, and union workers have some of the highest wages in the country. You will seldom find improving working conditions without notable increase in GDP per capita.
- notSupplied 8y ago
  Exactly. Look at LA Teachers unions demanding cap on charter schools. Charter school teachers are non-unionized, so this demand harms the pay of non-unionized "outsiders". If they succeed, they can parade the statistic that "Unionized teachers have gained income over non-unionized teachers thanks to the wonderful work of unions", when in fact what they have really done is transfer wealth from outsiders to insiders.