4 ms·

So, as a card-carrying member of the FSF, I'll weigh in. When I pull out my FSF card that contains a tiny flash drive with a Trisquel image on it [0], most peop

So, as a card-carrying member of the FSF, I'll weigh in. When I pull out my FSF card that contains a tiny flash drive with a Trisquel image on it [0], most people think it's incredibly cool and often allow me to demo it on some old PC/laptop they have lying around. The "demo" of Trisquel goes pretty well for about ten minutes (the DE is quite easy for people used to the Win 9x paradigm to understand), then I inevitably get to the point where they want to see the browser or something that requires internet, and it doesn't work. It doesn't work because there are very few desktops or laptops that ship with a wireless card supporting a completely free driver that Trisquel will ship. And that's where the conversation usually ends. Because if the free OS can't let the computer do the things the end-user expects it to do, they won't use it. It doesn't matter if they align practically or philosophically with the FOSS movement, a computer that can't access the internet is just a toy or a paperweight to them. [0]https://www.fsf.org/associate/benefits https://www.fsf.org/associate/benefits

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
sqrt17 8y ago
> a computer that can't access the internet is just a toy or a paperweight to them. which would be a thing unheard of if we were still in 1993. We aren't, and you find people happily using iOS or Android devices that do mostly web browsing and video watching and would functionally be a toy or a paperweight if you transported them back to 1993. Computing has changed in the last 25 years. Paradoxically, more people are using FOSS than before while fewer would subscribe to the kind of Free Software purism (totalitarism?) that the FSF advocates. Windows running a (GNU/)Linux subsystem is a victory of Open Source, but a defeat for the Free Software movement. Which brings us to > if they align practically or philosophically with the FOSS movement and I'd call this a ruse - the Open Source movement developed as a countercurrent to FSF's ideology around Free Software mostly in the shape of people that liked Free Software (both as in Freedom and as in Beer) as well as software licensed under more liberal licenses but did not see the idea of Copyleft as central to their enterprise. There is a FOSS movement, replete with sympathisers and drama and everything around it, but it's at best a strict superset of the Free Software movement that also contains people with non-FSF-compatible opinions.
- code_duck 8y ago
  If you took an iOS or Android device back to 1993 with no internet, it would have a camera, photo editing capabilities, text editing (desktop publishing, with the right software), music synthesis and editing, a rich game platform, a guitar tuner, a music player, and so on. In short, everything we used computers for back then and more, since phones are just mini-computers combined with cameras. That web browsing is available on top of all that local functionality, and is the most popular, shows why people use our phones 24/7. But I’m not sure how this is related to a desktop OS in 2019 that can’t access the internet. Sure, a modern GNU/Linux desktop system would have been amazing in 1993 with no internet too.
  - swiftcoder 8y ago
    It has significantly fewer of those things if you don't have wifi access to download them from the store to begin with. Since software doesn't come on floppy disks anymore...
    - walterbell 8y ago
      iOS devices can connect to wired ethernet.
      - code_duck 8y ago
        and then bridge space-time to connect to the App Store from 1993? If we’re going to go that far we could assume a 28k modem peripheral. If we had iPod Touches in the 90s before widespread internet, software could be distributed by USB drives (Lightning port drives I guess).
    - code_duck 8y ago
      I’m not sure how we’re supposed to complete the entire story because it also requires time travel or something. I assumed that we can assume that the necessary software was available, just not internet access.
newman8r 8y ago
it would be nice to have a usb stick that had both compatible wifi and storage for these types of demos.
newnewpdro 8y ago
So keep a supported USB wifi dongle with your Trisquel flash drive. These things can be had for ~$10 new on ebay, it's a total non-issue.
- AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
  > it's a total non-issue Finding a wifi dongle with a free driver is more difficult than you give it credit for. While testing out Trisquel, I sought to do exactly this. Turns out, the best resource we've got for checking wifi card compatibility with free software is here: https://h-node.org/wifi/catalogue/en https://h-node.org/wifi/catalogue/en So I settled on a TP-Link N150, which supposedly uses an Atheros chipset and a free driver [0], and is easily found on Amazon. [1] Should be all good, right? Oops! The newest revision of that adaptor uses a Realtek driver instead of an Atheros driver, so no more FOSS driver.[2] Your only option then is to order a specialized one from ThinkPenguin at a generous markup, which the average user is probably not going to know or think to do.[3] It's also not helping my sales pitch to prospective Trisquel users: "Please ignore the wifi card that your laptop came with and that every other OS supports, and shell out an additional 20 bucks so that your Free Operating System can actually use wifi. To end the story, I returned the Amazon adaptor and never bought a proper one that worked: I just switched my Trisquel testing to a laptop that had an ethernet port. [0] https://h-node.org/wifi/view/en/357/Atheros-Communications-Inc--AR9271-802-11n/1/1/undef/undef/undef/undef/wifi-works/n150 https://h-node.org/wifi/view/en/357/Atheros-Communications-I... [1]https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SZEOLG/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SZEOLG/ref=oh_aui_sear... [2]https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RDCADVGT5FXLM/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002SZEOLG https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RDCADVGT5FXLM/ref... [3]https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-us...
  - newnewpdro 8y ago
    If you're actually planning to continue doing this with this particular distribution it would behoove you to locate and acquire a small cache of relatively cheap, supported wifi dongles. The cost is so small it makes no sense when you're already investing significant time on this. Offer to sell them the supported dongle at cost if they're super into what you're demonstrating. You'll probably find yourself profiting a little accidentally when they volunteer to pay you more for your time now that a transaction is happening. I don't think it's a good idea to send them off to find supported hardware on their own, people are justifiably anxious about buying potentially incompatible computer components - but when you have it in front of them plugged in and demonstrably functioning it's a completely different story.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

sqrt17 8y ago

> a computer that can't access the internet is just a toy or a paperweight to them. which would be a thing unheard of if we were still in 1993. We aren't, and you find people happily using iOS or Android devices that do mostly web browsing and video watching and would functionally be a toy or a paperweight if you transported them back to 1993. Computing has changed in the last 25 years. Paradoxically, more people are using FOSS than before while fewer would subscribe to the kind of Free Software purism (totalitarism?) that the FSF advocates. Windows running a (GNU/)Linux subsystem is a victory of Open Source, but a defeat for the Free Software movement. Which brings us to > if they align practically or philosophically with the FOSS movement and I'd call this a ruse - the Open Source movement developed as a countercurrent to FSF's ideology around Free Software mostly in the shape of people that liked Free Software (both as in Freedom and as in Beer) as well as software licensed under more liberal licenses but did not see the idea of Copyleft as central to their enterprise. There is a FOSS movement, replete with sympathisers and drama and everything around it, but it's at best a strict superset of the Free Software movement that also contains people with non-FSF-compatible opinions.

code_duck 8y ago
If you took an iOS or Android device back to 1993 with no internet, it would have a camera, photo editing capabilities, text editing (desktop publishing, with the right software), music synthesis and editing, a rich game platform, a guitar tuner, a music player, and so on. In short, everything we used computers for back then and more, since phones are just mini-computers combined with cameras. That web browsing is available on top of all that local functionality, and is the most popular, shows why people use our phones 24/7. But I’m not sure how this is related to a desktop OS in 2019 that can’t access the internet. Sure, a modern GNU/Linux desktop system would have been amazing in 1993 with no internet too.
- swiftcoder 8y ago
  It has significantly fewer of those things if you don't have wifi access to download them from the store to begin with. Since software doesn't come on floppy disks anymore...
  - walterbell 8y ago
    iOS devices can connect to wired ethernet.
    - code_duck 8y ago
      and then bridge space-time to connect to the App Store from 1993? If we’re going to go that far we could assume a 28k modem peripheral. If we had iPod Touches in the 90s before widespread internet, software could be distributed by USB drives (Lightning port drives I guess).
  - code_duck 8y ago
    I’m not sure how we’re supposed to complete the entire story because it also requires time travel or something. I assumed that we can assume that the necessary software was available, just not internet access.

newman8r 8y ago

it would be nice to have a usb stick that had both compatible wifi and storage for these types of demos.

newnewpdro 8y ago

So keep a supported USB wifi dongle with your Trisquel flash drive. These things can be had for ~$10 new on ebay, it's a total non-issue.

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
> it's a total non-issue Finding a wifi dongle with a free driver is more difficult than you give it credit for. While testing out Trisquel, I sought to do exactly this. Turns out, the best resource we've got for checking wifi card compatibility with free software is here: https://h-node.org/wifi/catalogue/en https://h-node.org/wifi/catalogue/en So I settled on a TP-Link N150, which supposedly uses an Atheros chipset and a free driver [0], and is easily found on Amazon. [1] Should be all good, right? Oops! The newest revision of that adaptor uses a Realtek driver instead of an Atheros driver, so no more FOSS driver.[2] Your only option then is to order a specialized one from ThinkPenguin at a generous markup, which the average user is probably not going to know or think to do.[3] It's also not helping my sales pitch to prospective Trisquel users: "Please ignore the wifi card that your laptop came with and that every other OS supports, and shell out an additional 20 bucks so that your Free Operating System can actually use wifi. To end the story, I returned the Amazon adaptor and never bought a proper one that worked: I just switched my Trisquel testing to a laptop that had an ethernet port. [0] https://h-node.org/wifi/view/en/357/Atheros-Communications-Inc--AR9271-802-11n/1/1/undef/undef/undef/undef/wifi-works/n150 https://h-node.org/wifi/view/en/357/Atheros-Communications-I... [1]https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SZEOLG/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1 https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002SZEOLG/ref=oh_aui_sear... [2]https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RDCADVGT5FXLM/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B002SZEOLG https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RDCADVGT5FXLM/ref... [3]https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-usb-adapter-gnu-linux-tpe-n150usb https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/penguin-wireless-n-us...
- newnewpdro 8y ago
  If you're actually planning to continue doing this with this particular distribution it would behoove you to locate and acquire a small cache of relatively cheap, supported wifi dongles. The cost is so small it makes no sense when you're already investing significant time on this. Offer to sell them the supported dongle at cost if they're super into what you're demonstrating. You'll probably find yourself profiting a little accidentally when they volunteer to pay you more for your time now that a transaction is happening. I don't think it's a good idea to send them off to find supported hardware on their own, people are justifiably anxious about buying potentially incompatible computer components - but when you have it in front of them plugged in and demonstrably functioning it's a completely different story.