4 ms·

It's astonising to see what lengths people will go to in order to dispute something they simply don't comprehend because of pre-existing bias. It's a bit like

by rocgf 8y ago

It's astonising to see what lengths people will go to in order to dispute something they simply don't comprehend because of pre-existing bias. It's a bit like trying to explain what being in love is like or what you feel when your child is born and he grabs your finger for the first time. You could just as easily dismiss those two, despite the fact that they are some of the most beautiful life experiences for any human. It doesn't really matter if one writes a sentence or a novel about a psychedelic experience, you won't be that much closer to understanding it either way.

lostmsu 8y ago
I am not trying to understand the experience. I am trying to understand if it actually provides any enlightenment apart from "wow this brain failure mode is fun to experience".
- Moodles 8y ago
  You probably won't understand by reading our HN comments. You come across as quite argumentative and not really ready to listen to a contradicting view. Maybe you're offended by the word "enlightening". I don't know why that's such a big deal? I suggest you either try some mushrooms to understand for yourself, or chill out.
  - lostmsu 8y ago
    > You probably won't understand by reading our HN comments. Why not? If nobody here, who had "enlightening" drug experiences, actually can mention something enlightening which they learned during a trip, it would reassure others, that there's no enlightening. > I don't know why that's such a big deal? Because we are talking about addictive and potentially dangerous chemicals, which people continue to suggest for some reason.
    - rocgf 8y ago
      Your attitude is not one of desire to understand, but rather of desire to dispute. Someone that comes across as you do can rarely be budged, so I won't waste a lot of effort. First of all, the archetypal psychedelic (e.g. mushrooms, LSD) are some of the safest substances one can consume from a physical health standpoint. The dangers come only psychologically and, to be fair, you cannot know beforehand what your reaction will be. However, these risks can be mitigated by doing research beforehand, taking an appropriate dose, testing your substance. As for addiction, psychedelics in particular are on the lower end of the scale. Caffeine and sugar are more addictive by orders of magnitude (though this is personal anecdote). > actually can mention something enlightening which they learned during a trip Now, it seems like, for you to be content, you want some pearl of wisdom or utterance that would sound unlike anything that's ever been said before. That will not happen and it is an unfair yardstick. Enlightening is the state you experience during and after the experience; you simply would not believe that your brain is capable of taking you to that place.
      - lostmsu 8y ago
        > Your attitude is not one of desire to understand, but rather of desire to dispute. That's how understanding works. In science this process is called peer review. > Now, it seems like, for you to be content, you want some pearl of wisdom or utterance that would sound unlike anything that's ever been said before. Nah, anything, that person did not know/think before would be good. > That will not happen and it is an unfair yardstick. Enlightening is the state you experience during and after the experience; you simply would not believe that your brain is capable of taking you to that place. That's about as enlightening, as having your brain before bungee jump to believe you actually gonna do it.
        rocgf 8y ago
        > That's how understanding works. In science this process is called peer review. Who are you trying to fool here, really? Your comments have been tendentious and definitely not on the neutral or inquisitive side. Your agenda is quite clear, despite the perfunctory attempts of proving the opposite. > Nah, anything, that person did not know/think before would be good. Fine. Quoting from a friend below, of course... What effects you get deeply depends on what substance you ingest, and your mileage may vary, but generally speaking, your thoughts get a whole new dimension to them, a dimension that you never knew existed. You are not necessarily smarter, but you can quite literally _see_ avenues of reasoning stemming from your biases, opinions, thoughts. While sober thoughts are somewhat garbled up, without a clear beginning or end, on psychedelics they become like flipping through stack of books - visual, clear, compartmentalized, distinct. You can take an idea and dissect it by means that are just not available while sober. There are many nuances to this and a text will never capture them all. On mushrooms, as an example, I become objective to a fault. I know the notion of good and bad, but nothing is intrinsically so because my biases and preconceived ideas have gone out the window. I can think of a topic as if I became aware of it for the first time. I also get this state of constant awe at the beauty and the complexity of everyday life - be it a ladybug, a plane, a tree, a painting. This is not a state I want permanently, it doesn't necessarily _feel good_ by definition and it can be overwhelming. Now, as for examples of what I "did not know/think before", there are plenty. Some of them too personal to post here, but I guess I can give one example. My childhood was a happy one, but I never realized how much school has shaped me and affected me in negative ways. Since I was not brought up in a Western country, the school system was absurd in many ways, most obviously in terms of the authority issues I got from it. I always saw my school years as a given, an immutable part of my existence, and never once pondered the question of "how much different would I have been as a person in different circumstances?". Think of this what you will, I have tried my best to convey a very complex experience that I myself have forgotten a lot about. The realness of the experience tends to fade away with abstinence.

by rocgf 8y ago

lostmsu 8y ago

I am not trying to understand the experience. I am trying to understand if it actually provides any enlightenment apart from "wow this brain failure mode is fun to experience".

Moodles 8y ago
You probably won't understand by reading our HN comments. You come across as quite argumentative and not really ready to listen to a contradicting view. Maybe you're offended by the word "enlightening". I don't know why that's such a big deal? I suggest you either try some mushrooms to understand for yourself, or chill out.
- lostmsu 8y ago
  > You probably won't understand by reading our HN comments. Why not? If nobody here, who had "enlightening" drug experiences, actually can mention something enlightening which they learned during a trip, it would reassure others, that there's no enlightening. > I don't know why that's such a big deal? Because we are talking about addictive and potentially dangerous chemicals, which people continue to suggest for some reason.
  - rocgf 8y ago
    Your attitude is not one of desire to understand, but rather of desire to dispute. Someone that comes across as you do can rarely be budged, so I won't waste a lot of effort. First of all, the archetypal psychedelic (e.g. mushrooms, LSD) are some of the safest substances one can consume from a physical health standpoint. The dangers come only psychologically and, to be fair, you cannot know beforehand what your reaction will be. However, these risks can be mitigated by doing research beforehand, taking an appropriate dose, testing your substance. As for addiction, psychedelics in particular are on the lower end of the scale. Caffeine and sugar are more addictive by orders of magnitude (though this is personal anecdote). > actually can mention something enlightening which they learned during a trip Now, it seems like, for you to be content, you want some pearl of wisdom or utterance that would sound unlike anything that's ever been said before. That will not happen and it is an unfair yardstick. Enlightening is the state you experience during and after the experience; you simply would not believe that your brain is capable of taking you to that place.
    - lostmsu 8y ago
      > Your attitude is not one of desire to understand, but rather of desire to dispute. That's how understanding works. In science this process is called peer review. > Now, it seems like, for you to be content, you want some pearl of wisdom or utterance that would sound unlike anything that's ever been said before. Nah, anything, that person did not know/think before would be good. > That will not happen and it is an unfair yardstick. Enlightening is the state you experience during and after the experience; you simply would not believe that your brain is capable of taking you to that place. That's about as enlightening, as having your brain before bungee jump to believe you actually gonna do it.
      - rocgf 8y ago
        > That's how understanding works. In science this process is called peer review. Who are you trying to fool here, really? Your comments have been tendentious and definitely not on the neutral or inquisitive side. Your agenda is quite clear, despite the perfunctory attempts of proving the opposite. > Nah, anything, that person did not know/think before would be good. Fine. Quoting from a friend below, of course... What effects you get deeply depends on what substance you ingest, and your mileage may vary, but generally speaking, your thoughts get a whole new dimension to them, a dimension that you never knew existed. You are not necessarily smarter, but you can quite literally _see_ avenues of reasoning stemming from your biases, opinions, thoughts. While sober thoughts are somewhat garbled up, without a clear beginning or end, on psychedelics they become like flipping through stack of books - visual, clear, compartmentalized, distinct. You can take an idea and dissect it by means that are just not available while sober. There are many nuances to this and a text will never capture them all. On mushrooms, as an example, I become objective to a fault. I know the notion of good and bad, but nothing is intrinsically so because my biases and preconceived ideas have gone out the window. I can think of a topic as if I became aware of it for the first time. I also get this state of constant awe at the beauty and the complexity of everyday life - be it a ladybug, a plane, a tree, a painting. This is not a state I want permanently, it doesn't necessarily _feel good_ by definition and it can be overwhelming. Now, as for examples of what I "did not know/think before", there are plenty. Some of them too personal to post here, but I guess I can give one example. My childhood was a happy one, but I never realized how much school has shaped me and affected me in negative ways. Since I was not brought up in a Western country, the school system was absurd in many ways, most obviously in terms of the authority issues I got from it. I always saw my school years as a given, an immutable part of my existence, and never once pondered the question of "how much different would I have been as a person in different circumstances?". Think of this what you will, I have tried my best to convey a very complex experience that I myself have forgotten a lot about. The realness of the experience tends to fade away with abstinence.