6 ms·

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile income bracket.

scrumbledober 8y ago
I see no reason for any workforces at any of the companies I have worked for as a developer to unionize. In my short career before that, however, I thought it would be very helpful for the valet company I worked at to unionize.
- root_axis 8y ago
  I certainly have. They were mostly the places where if you weren't perceived as the type who is willing to stay till 8PM a few nights a week peppered with the occasional weekend PR, you were relegated to the "poor work ethic" caste. Unions aren't perfect, but they certainly stomp out this type of abuse and force the company to either hire more people or pay fairer wages.
  - fastball 8y ago
    You're a senior developer and you don't think you're getting paid a fair wage? Ok...
    - root_axis 8y ago
      Huh? I never said that... Are you replying to the correct comment?
    - dlp211 8y ago
      Fair != Good. Fair wages for a given position and circumstance can be anywhere on the spectrum of compensation. I currently wish I had a union because I think I was unfairly evaluated in my current perf cycle, but there is no one to appeal my argument to which includes significant positive peer and managerial feedback. What I currently make has no impact on that.
    - monocasa 8y ago
      Why shouldn't he? The bigger valley companies got caught in a wage fixing scheme that by some estimates depressed wages by around 20% across the board, and all they did is send out a few checks for a few hundred to some of the employees. He's almost certainly not getting a fair market wage.
      - naravara 8y ago
        >Why shouldn't he? The bigger valley companies got caught in a wage fixing scheme that by some estimates depressed wages by around 20% across the board, and all they did is send out a few checks for a few hundred to some of the employees. >He's almost certainly not getting a fair market wage. Bingo! Complaints like that sound like people getting mad at professional athletes for getting paid and asking for more. If they get less money it's not as if you, the fan, are going to see that in lower ticket prices or anything. That's just money that goes to management instead. Why are YOU mad about it?
  - sgregnt 8y ago
    Find a different work place.
    - root_axis 8y ago
      That's pretty good advice for a flippant one-liner, but the overworking of engineers is pretty common across the industry.
      - chillacy 8y ago
        There are jobs which are extremely chill. Think slower growing but still profitable companies, and then mobile or desktop development so there’s no on-call. 20-30 hour weeks, depending on how good you are at managing work perception and saying no.
      - solidasparagus 8y ago
        Software engineering talent is in extremely high demand and the supply is limited. You can find a job that pays well and provides excellent work-life balance. A good engineer that enforces very strong work-life boundaries is a still better than no engineer and that's the decision many companies are faced with. But you won't be paid or professionally respected quite as much as those that put in the hours - which seems like a perfectly fair trade off.
        root_axis 8y ago
        You can find a job that pays well and provides excellent work-life balance Of course you can, so why doesn't everyone do it? Why is there so much written about work/life balance and burnout targeted at programmers (much of it featured on this very website)? Why is google lampooned for on-premises chefs and nap rooms? Why does every programmer in a 10 mile radius sneer when the phrase "unlimited vacation" is posted on the internet? you won't be paid or professionally respected quite as much as those that put in the hours Well that's certainly true, but putting in the extra hours doesn't necessarily equate to more pay or more respect, very often it equates to much more work and responsibility without much more pay.
- moate 8y ago
  This is only because developers are making so much money (in many circumstances). The fact that things are "good" doesn't mean they're "fair" or that they couldn't be "better". A good union would ideally be creating better working conditions for its members.
- trophycase 8y ago
  Maybe not yours, but maybe if there was a union at Facebook, Cambridge Analytica wouldn't have happened, or any number of their other scandals...
walshemj 8y ago
Have you been though a recession yet :-)
- nickpsecurity 8y ago
  I had a union job for steady pay and great benefits while trying to do consulting on the side. I hoped to grow the business. Great Recession hit. Contracts dried up. Folks I lived with were laid off multiple times. Union contract was only reason I could keep us afloat. It didn't let them lay us off without paying for it, which they opted not to do. So, yeah, what you said. :)
BrainInAJar 8y ago
The biggest lie capitalists ever told you was that unions were about money. They're about control. How's your open plan office? Do you like it? Can you do anything about it? Unions can help.
- cpursley 8y ago
  Or you can go work for a normal company that treats its employees well. There's plenty of them out there; it's a competitive market for good staff. *Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. If you're in tech at the moment and somewhat competent, you can basically name your price and benefits.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    > Or you can go work for a normal company that treats its employees well. If a union is in the best interest of the employees, then it's in the best interest of any company that respects their employees. Companies which employ union-busting practices don't treat their employees well by definition. And promises of good will from management hardly compare to having a dedicated infrastructure in place to support employees' needs and rights, which is exactly what a union is. Management can change and promises can be broken. Unions on the other hand are intentionally structured to place employees' needs above all else.
    - cpursley 8y ago
      So go work for another company. My company treats me like an adult and pays me well to boot. There's way more to tech than the valley sweat shops...
      - shawnz 8y ago
        I wouldn't say they treat you like an adult if they reject unions. They pay you well and treat you with politeness because they understand the value they can extract from you. That is much different than a unionized environment where you as an employee have a much more real kind of safety that goes beyond the good will of people in management.
eqdw 8y ago
YES!
Veelox 8y ago
I don't think spending years working hard to develop a skill set that is highly sought after counts as privilege...
- root_axis 8y ago
  I regard it as a privilege because most people outside of programming work a lot harder and get paid a lot less.
  - bendbro 8y ago
    My experience has been that most people work a lot less and get paid a lot less. Some obviously work more, but in general I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle. Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing. Salaries and work expectations are built around that. I’d agree it is a privilege to be able to hold a job that works you harder and pays you harder, because I feel most people are not satisfied doing jobs that have them frequently idle, and would choose something with a work-level similar to programming
    - root_axis 8y ago
      > I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle I have to vehemently disagree with this. I have observed that most programmers work something like 3-6 hours a day and the rest of that time is spent browsing reddit/hn or playing ping-pong or some other distraction. Also, every single place I've worked that pays engineers well also has a culture where engineers take 1-2 hour lunches regularly, not to mention full time or part time work-from-home schedules and unlimited bathroom breaks. Of course, at every organization there are those workhorse developers who drink Soylent and coffee instead of breaking for lunch and leave after the whole office is empty, but they are relatively rare. > Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing. Do you have any examples? I'd argue that your average waiter works harder than your average programmer. Programming jobs require much more specialized expertise but the work itself is about as easy as it gets; and it's also much more forgiving compared to just about every other profession. Certainly, if you're "spending significant time doing nothing" while working at a restaurant, you will be fired very quickly.
anth_anm 8y ago
Doctors and Lawyers protect themselves with professional organizations. Actors too.

This is senior engineer privilege speaking. A union seems strictly worse when dozens of companies are falling over themselves to pay you in the 90th percentile income bracket.

scrumbledober 8y ago

I see no reason for any workforces at any of the companies I have worked for as a developer to unionize. In my short career before that, however, I thought it would be very helpful for the valet company I worked at to unionize.

root_axis 8y ago
I certainly have. They were mostly the places where if you weren't perceived as the type who is willing to stay till 8PM a few nights a week peppered with the occasional weekend PR, you were relegated to the "poor work ethic" caste. Unions aren't perfect, but they certainly stomp out this type of abuse and force the company to either hire more people or pay fairer wages.
- fastball 8y ago
  You're a senior developer and you don't think you're getting paid a fair wage? Ok...
  - root_axis 8y ago
    Huh? I never said that... Are you replying to the correct comment?
  - dlp211 8y ago
    Fair != Good. Fair wages for a given position and circumstance can be anywhere on the spectrum of compensation. I currently wish I had a union because I think I was unfairly evaluated in my current perf cycle, but there is no one to appeal my argument to which includes significant positive peer and managerial feedback. What I currently make has no impact on that.
  - monocasa 8y ago
    Why shouldn't he? The bigger valley companies got caught in a wage fixing scheme that by some estimates depressed wages by around 20% across the board, and all they did is send out a few checks for a few hundred to some of the employees. He's almost certainly not getting a fair market wage.
    - naravara 8y ago
      >Why shouldn't he? The bigger valley companies got caught in a wage fixing scheme that by some estimates depressed wages by around 20% across the board, and all they did is send out a few checks for a few hundred to some of the employees. >He's almost certainly not getting a fair market wage. Bingo! Complaints like that sound like people getting mad at professional athletes for getting paid and asking for more. If they get less money it's not as if you, the fan, are going to see that in lower ticket prices or anything. That's just money that goes to management instead. Why are YOU mad about it?
- sgregnt 8y ago
  Find a different work place.
  - root_axis 8y ago
    That's pretty good advice for a flippant one-liner, but the overworking of engineers is pretty common across the industry.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      There are jobs which are extremely chill. Think slower growing but still profitable companies, and then mobile or desktop development so there’s no on-call. 20-30 hour weeks, depending on how good you are at managing work perception and saying no.
    - solidasparagus 8y ago
      Software engineering talent is in extremely high demand and the supply is limited. You can find a job that pays well and provides excellent work-life balance. A good engineer that enforces very strong work-life boundaries is a still better than no engineer and that's the decision many companies are faced with. But you won't be paid or professionally respected quite as much as those that put in the hours - which seems like a perfectly fair trade off.
      - root_axis 8y ago
        You can find a job that pays well and provides excellent work-life balance Of course you can, so why doesn't everyone do it? Why is there so much written about work/life balance and burnout targeted at programmers (much of it featured on this very website)? Why is google lampooned for on-premises chefs and nap rooms? Why does every programmer in a 10 mile radius sneer when the phrase "unlimited vacation" is posted on the internet? you won't be paid or professionally respected quite as much as those that put in the hours Well that's certainly true, but putting in the extra hours doesn't necessarily equate to more pay or more respect, very often it equates to much more work and responsibility without much more pay.
moate 8y ago
This is only because developers are making so much money (in many circumstances). The fact that things are "good" doesn't mean they're "fair" or that they couldn't be "better". A good union would ideally be creating better working conditions for its members.
trophycase 8y ago
Maybe not yours, but maybe if there was a union at Facebook, Cambridge Analytica wouldn't have happened, or any number of their other scandals...

walshemj 8y ago

Have you been though a recession yet :-)

nickpsecurity 8y ago
I had a union job for steady pay and great benefits while trying to do consulting on the side. I hoped to grow the business. Great Recession hit. Contracts dried up. Folks I lived with were laid off multiple times. Union contract was only reason I could keep us afloat. It didn't let them lay us off without paying for it, which they opted not to do. So, yeah, what you said. :)

BrainInAJar 8y ago

The biggest lie capitalists ever told you was that unions were about money. They're about control. How's your open plan office? Do you like it? Can you do anything about it? Unions can help.

cpursley 8y ago
Or you can go work for a normal company that treats its employees well. There's plenty of them out there; it's a competitive market for good staff. *Edit: I don't understand the downvotes. If you're in tech at the moment and somewhat competent, you can basically name your price and benefits.
- shawnz 8y ago
  > Or you can go work for a normal company that treats its employees well. If a union is in the best interest of the employees, then it's in the best interest of any company that respects their employees. Companies which employ union-busting practices don't treat their employees well by definition. And promises of good will from management hardly compare to having a dedicated infrastructure in place to support employees' needs and rights, which is exactly what a union is. Management can change and promises can be broken. Unions on the other hand are intentionally structured to place employees' needs above all else.
  - cpursley 8y ago
    So go work for another company. My company treats me like an adult and pays me well to boot. There's way more to tech than the valley sweat shops...
    - shawnz 8y ago
      I wouldn't say they treat you like an adult if they reject unions. They pay you well and treat you with politeness because they understand the value they can extract from you. That is much different than a unionized environment where you as an employee have a much more real kind of safety that goes beyond the good will of people in management.

eqdw 8y ago

YES!

Veelox 8y ago

I don't think spending years working hard to develop a skill set that is highly sought after counts as privilege...

root_axis 8y ago
I regard it as a privilege because most people outside of programming work a lot harder and get paid a lot less.
- bendbro 8y ago
  My experience has been that most people work a lot less and get paid a lot less. Some obviously work more, but in general I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle. Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing. Salaries and work expectations are built around that. I’d agree it is a privilege to be able to hold a job that works you harder and pays you harder, because I feel most people are not satisfied doing jobs that have them frequently idle, and would choose something with a work-level similar to programming
  - root_axis 8y ago
    > I’d say programming is a job where you spend most of your time working and little of your time idle I have to vehemently disagree with this. I have observed that most programmers work something like 3-6 hours a day and the rest of that time is spent browsing reddit/hn or playing ping-pong or some other distraction. Also, every single place I've worked that pays engineers well also has a culture where engineers take 1-2 hour lunches regularly, not to mention full time or part time work-from-home schedules and unlimited bathroom breaks. Of course, at every organization there are those workhorse developers who drink Soylent and coffee instead of breaking for lunch and leave after the whole office is empty, but they are relatively rare. > Many entry level jobs have workers spending significant time doing nothing. Do you have any examples? I'd argue that your average waiter works harder than your average programmer. Programming jobs require much more specialized expertise but the work itself is about as easy as it gets; and it's also much more forgiving compared to just about every other profession. Certainly, if you're "spending significant time doing nothing" while working at a restaurant, you will be fired very quickly.

anth_anm 8y ago

Doctors and Lawyers protect themselves with professional organizations. Actors too.