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This is a problem everywhere, but it is worse when you are stuck with unionized employees. Compare public school teachers to private school teachers. Higher pay

This is a problem everywhere, but it is worse when you are stuck with unionized employees. Compare public school teachers to private school teachers. Higher pay (thanks to unions) for public schools, and lower quality (thanks to unions).

munk-a 8y ago
I'm up in Canada where the teaching unions are actually pretty strong and the teachers are well compensated, but in the US teacher salaries are legendarily poor given the expectations placed on them and the importance of their job. In fact, due to the extremely low salaries in either private or public schools many people who would consider teaching end up in different fields... _that_ is what is driving down the quality.
max76 8y ago
> (thanks to unions) Is there additional information about how unions lower the quality of public education inside the United States?
- chris11 8y ago
  I'm interested in that also. I don't really see how you can compare public and private education without looking at class and the ability for the private school to select students. At the very least private school students have parents who can and will spend a significant amount of money on their kids education.
- ericd 8y ago
  Look up rubber rooming in NY schools. Basically, they can't fire teachers with tenure (which they get relatively quickly compared to eg college professor tenure) for even gross misconduct, so they end up paying them to sit in a room doing nothing. If there isn't enough budget, they have to lay off newer teachers, even if they're doing well.
  - flukus 8y ago
    I looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers > Although teachers are now being charged more quickly, it still takes several years to complete the hearing process and for the arbitrator to render a decision. So they get stood down until they've had a misconduct hearing, that seems fair, we don't want to ruin careers on allegations alone. > In June 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full. This is a massive administrative failure, I don't know why your blaming unions.
    - ericd 8y ago
      I'm not blaming them for the number of people in those rubber rooms or for the terrible administration of that school district. I am blaming them for how hard it is to fire a teacher the administration doesn't want, for whatever reason, to the point where new, exceptional teachers are being let go because they have to keep around older teachers with tenure who are phoning it in. That drags down the average quality of teaching in the US. That said, I also think that good teachers should be paid much more to attract more talent, and make it a viable alternative to more careers for people who aren't willing to sacrifice their finances to teach. EDIT: I should also note that NYC public schools are an incredibly challenging teaching environment, a lot of false accusations fly around, and I don't mean that all the teachers in the rubber rooms should be let go. I just disagree that teaching should be a tenured position.
      - flukus 8y ago
        > I am blaming them for how hard it is to fire a teacher the administration doesn't want, for whatever reason, to the point where new, exceptional teachers are being let go because they have to keep around older teachers with tenure who are phoning it in. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but is there any evidence that it is a huge problem and not isolated cases? > That said, I also think that good teachers should be paid much more to attract more talent, and make it a viable alternative to more careers for people who aren't willing to sacrifice their finances to teach. The problem is not having a way to quantify what a good teacher is. Is it the one that imparts a love of learning on there students or the one that gets better test results? Is it the one in the wealthy area or the one in the poor area where kids aren't even being fed? If the students do poorly is it the teachers fault or did a teacher in a previous year skip crucial topics? Paying good teachers more isn't possible until you can identify good teachers. > I just disagree that teaching should be a tenured position. Well there I agree, it should at least be very rare. It does sound strange to me, I don't think it's a thing in my country and even in academia tenure isn't as strong.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
naravara 8y ago
>and lower quality (thanks to unions). You sure it's the unions and not the fact that private schools get to cream-skim children from families with means who want to prioritize their education rather than being forced to take all comers?
Buttons840 8y ago
> Higher pay (thanks to unions) for public schools, and lower quality (thanks to unions). Mandated by government and paid for with taxes seems to be part of the equation too. I'm not commenting on whether that's a good or bad thing. However, if a regular business ended up being forced into a situation where they had to overpay underperformers, they'd go out of business, probably for the better(?).
archagon 8y ago
I’ve had excellent public school teachers, and have also heard horror stories about private school teachers from my friends.

munk-a 8y ago

I'm up in Canada where the teaching unions are actually pretty strong and the teachers are well compensated, but in the US teacher salaries are legendarily poor given the expectations placed on them and the importance of their job. In fact, due to the extremely low salaries in either private or public schools many people who would consider teaching end up in different fields... _that_ is what is driving down the quality.

max76 8y ago

> (thanks to unions) Is there additional information about how unions lower the quality of public education inside the United States?

chris11 8y ago
I'm interested in that also. I don't really see how you can compare public and private education without looking at class and the ability for the private school to select students. At the very least private school students have parents who can and will spend a significant amount of money on their kids education.
ericd 8y ago
Look up rubber rooming in NY schools. Basically, they can't fire teachers with tenure (which they get relatively quickly compared to eg college professor tenure) for even gross misconduct, so they end up paying them to sit in a room doing nothing. If there isn't enough budget, they have to lay off newer teachers, even if they're doing well.
- flukus 8y ago
  I looked it up: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassignment_centers > Although teachers are now being charged more quickly, it still takes several years to complete the hearing process and for the arbitrator to render a decision. So they get stood down until they've had a misconduct hearing, that seems fair, we don't want to ruin careers on allegations alone. > In June 2012 it was revealed that the New York State Education Department had not paid its arbitrators for several years, and collectively owed them millions of dollars for cases they had completed, or were in the process of hearing. In frustration, ten of the 24 arbitrators on the New York City panel have quit, while the remaining 14 refuse to hear any testimony or issue any decisions until their back wages have been paid in full. This is a massive administrative failure, I don't know why your blaming unions.
  - ericd 8y ago
    I'm not blaming them for the number of people in those rubber rooms or for the terrible administration of that school district. I am blaming them for how hard it is to fire a teacher the administration doesn't want, for whatever reason, to the point where new, exceptional teachers are being let go because they have to keep around older teachers with tenure who are phoning it in. That drags down the average quality of teaching in the US. That said, I also think that good teachers should be paid much more to attract more talent, and make it a viable alternative to more careers for people who aren't willing to sacrifice their finances to teach. EDIT: I should also note that NYC public schools are an incredibly challenging teaching environment, a lot of false accusations fly around, and I don't mean that all the teachers in the rubber rooms should be let go. I just disagree that teaching should be a tenured position.
    - flukus 8y ago
      > I am blaming them for how hard it is to fire a teacher the administration doesn't want, for whatever reason, to the point where new, exceptional teachers are being let go because they have to keep around older teachers with tenure who are phoning it in. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but is there any evidence that it is a huge problem and not isolated cases? > That said, I also think that good teachers should be paid much more to attract more talent, and make it a viable alternative to more careers for people who aren't willing to sacrifice their finances to teach. The problem is not having a way to quantify what a good teacher is. Is it the one that imparts a love of learning on there students or the one that gets better test results? Is it the one in the wealthy area or the one in the poor area where kids aren't even being fed? If the students do poorly is it the teachers fault or did a teacher in a previous year skip crucial topics? Paying good teachers more isn't possible until you can identify good teachers. > I just disagree that teaching should be a tenured position. Well there I agree, it should at least be very rare. It does sound strange to me, I don't think it's a thing in my country and even in academia tenure isn't as strong.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

naravara 8y ago

>and lower quality (thanks to unions). You sure it's the unions and not the fact that private schools get to cream-skim children from families with means who want to prioritize their education rather than being forced to take all comers?

Buttons840 8y ago

> Higher pay (thanks to unions) for public schools, and lower quality (thanks to unions). Mandated by government and paid for with taxes seems to be part of the equation too. I'm not commenting on whether that's a good or bad thing. However, if a regular business ended up being forced into a situation where they had to overpay underperformers, they'd go out of business, probably for the better(?).

archagon 8y ago

I’ve had excellent public school teachers, and have also heard horror stories about private school teachers from my friends.