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They are a monopoly in the sense that pretty much every one of the 20-ish people I support on Patreon has said something along the lines of "Patreon's recent ac

They are a monopoly in the sense that pretty much every one of the 20-ish people I support on Patreon has said something along the lines of "Patreon's recent actions make me want to switch to an alternative, but there isn't one, so my only choice is to hunker down and pray they don't keep doing more things to chase away all the people who are generously giving me money." Also, note that when they express a desire to migrate to another similar service, they know full well that such a migration would involve losing a significant fraction of their patrons who don't go with them for a range of reasons. So in a very real sense, they are willing to pay to move off of Patreon, if only they could find somewhere to move to.

SilasX 8y ago
What about accepting donations directly via Paypal?
- delecti 8y ago
  It's just not realistic to expect the level of dedication from supporters making manual monthly donations that it would take to match what automatic pledges accomplish.
  - tapland 8y ago
    PayPal does monthly payments and have done so for ages.
  - nkkollaw 8y ago
    PayPal has been doing subscriptions for years.
- manigandham 8y ago
  It's a lot more work for both creator and contributor. Patreon also aggregates payments so you can fund small amounts (like $1) to several contributors without it all being eaten by processor fees, although they're removing that now and other channels are starting to build better UX so maybe it'll change.
- zanny 8y ago
  Besides what others have said a lot of Patreons success comes from the value add pledges have on the platform. When you go to a creators page on Patreon you have pledges on right, recent posts in the middle, and info on the left. Half those recent posts probably say "patreons only" or "$15+ tier only". Like it or not getting sustainable patronage like that requires that the donor get something in return to capture audiences the way Patreon does. It doesn't necessarily have to be what Patreon gives you - usually exclusive posts on the Patreon page, maybe recurring rewards that cost a lot less than the pledge tier - but independently implementing that outside of the website would be at best expensive and at worst ineffective because Patreon has the patronage "mindshare" and people "trust" it now.
cronix 8y ago
Jordan Peterson and a few others have quit Patreon and are building a competitor after they banned Sargon. https://www.businessinsider.com/jordan-peterson-says-hell-launch-patreon-alternative-before-christmas-2018-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/jordan-peterson-says-hell-la...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- josteink 8y ago
  They have left, but been explicitly clear about there being no real alternative, and that there’s no immediate cure coming from them any time soon. In effect, they’ve stopped accepting donations on purely ideological ground. While that’s certainly admirable, they are well off enough to be able to afford it. Most patreon-based content creators probably aren’t.
  - wmil 8y ago
    Well Peterson and others have switched over to Donorbox. Not quite the same thing, but they still take donations.
  - cronix 8y ago
    He has discussed building an alternative several times, and as recently as yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQZcpaBqo4&t=175s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQZcpaBqo4&t=175s
    - josteink 8y ago
      Sure. But it’s not here now. It’s not a viable alternative to patreon for people who wishes to leave today. So until that is all sorted out, content-creators are stuck with what they have.
microcolonel 8y ago
> They are a monopoly in the sense that pretty much every one of the 20-ish people I support on Patreon has said something along the lines of "Patreon's recent actions make me want to switch to an alternative, but there isn't one, so my only choice is to hunker down and pray they don't keep doing more things to chase away all the people who are generously giving me money." Reminder that SubscribeStar is back up and running. They are a good alternative, at least in the interim, if your supporters are leaving Patreon.
duskwuff 8y ago
I've heard good things about Ko-Fi (https://ko-fi.com/ https://ko-fi.com/). Significantly different revenue model from Patreon -- creators accept payments directly through Stripe or PayPal, and Ko-Fi provides services on top of that for a low, flat monthly fee.
Applejinx 8y ago
This. I literally live off my Patreon and am one of the success stories, have been to Patrecon etc, talked to Jack Conte. I wish he understood that he could do the Amazon model. Go 'screw you, investors: we own the entire sector and that will be your return, to have a piece of the only game in town'. I don't know if he can be that arrogant but we need him to be. Moving from a regular payment processor to Patreon involved knocking a decimal place off my revenue and slowly recovering (in a way that was more predictable and consistent). These proposed changes in commission don't alter that underlying fact: the business model is better for an independent creator than much higher but spikier revenue off direct sales. Doing a migration throws all that away. I don't even want to switch to an alternative. I want Patreon to be the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money, and my patrons do NOT come from Patreon anyway so there isn't anything really to lose. If they pull a 'Kagi' and blow up, vanishing one day and owing me hundreds or thousands of dollars, that's when I'll be pissed. So far they have not done that and I'm not convinced they will. They don't have to: they're earning shitloads of money quite legitimately. It is only investor logic that has ANYBODY saying they are doomed, and you could have said the same about Amazon all this time. They're Amazon for indie creators. Deal with it.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  I want Patreon to be the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money, and my patrons do NOT come from Patreon anyway so there isn't anything really to lose. Patreon wants to be a politically/culturally aware brand-crafted payment platform for "the creative class." It doesn't quite want to be "the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money." What if someone else was trying hard and executing well on being "the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money?" Would you switch?
nkkollaw 8y ago
A cable company is a monopoly. It's extremely easy to create a website, add a PayPal button, and ask your supporters to donate that way. A lot of people have been doing just that after Patreon's recent deplatforms. Or, there is also SubscribeStar. Patreon are just a middleman, but their arrogance of thinking they are more and their crazy spending will make them go bankrupt pretty soon.
- zanny 8y ago
  They are displaying the same arrogance Google, Facebook, et al show in regards to their platform lock in and market capture mindshare. They expect to get away with a lot of user hostile behavior because they have network effects forcing anyone who wants to use something like those platforms to use their platform because thats where everyone else is.

SilasX 8y ago

What about accepting donations directly via Paypal?

delecti 8y ago
It's just not realistic to expect the level of dedication from supporters making manual monthly donations that it would take to match what automatic pledges accomplish.
- tapland 8y ago
  PayPal does monthly payments and have done so for ages.
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  PayPal has been doing subscriptions for years.
manigandham 8y ago
It's a lot more work for both creator and contributor. Patreon also aggregates payments so you can fund small amounts (like $1) to several contributors without it all being eaten by processor fees, although they're removing that now and other channels are starting to build better UX so maybe it'll change.
zanny 8y ago
Besides what others have said a lot of Patreons success comes from the value add pledges have on the platform. When you go to a creators page on Patreon you have pledges on right, recent posts in the middle, and info on the left. Half those recent posts probably say "patreons only" or "$15+ tier only". Like it or not getting sustainable patronage like that requires that the donor get something in return to capture audiences the way Patreon does. It doesn't necessarily have to be what Patreon gives you - usually exclusive posts on the Patreon page, maybe recurring rewards that cost a lot less than the pledge tier - but independently implementing that outside of the website would be at best expensive and at worst ineffective because Patreon has the patronage "mindshare" and people "trust" it now.

cronix 8y ago

Jordan Peterson and a few others have quit Patreon and are building a competitor after they banned Sargon. https://www.businessinsider.com/jordan-peterson-says-hell-launch-patreon-alternative-before-christmas-2018-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/jordan-peterson-says-hell-la...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
josteink 8y ago
They have left, but been explicitly clear about there being no real alternative, and that there’s no immediate cure coming from them any time soon. In effect, they’ve stopped accepting donations on purely ideological ground. While that’s certainly admirable, they are well off enough to be able to afford it. Most patreon-based content creators probably aren’t.
- wmil 8y ago
  Well Peterson and others have switched over to Donorbox. Not quite the same thing, but they still take donations.
- cronix 8y ago
  He has discussed building an alternative several times, and as recently as yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQZcpaBqo4&t=175s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfQZcpaBqo4&t=175s
  - josteink 8y ago
    Sure. But it’s not here now. It’s not a viable alternative to patreon for people who wishes to leave today. So until that is all sorted out, content-creators are stuck with what they have.

microcolonel 8y ago

> They are a monopoly in the sense that pretty much every one of the 20-ish people I support on Patreon has said something along the lines of "Patreon's recent actions make me want to switch to an alternative, but there isn't one, so my only choice is to hunker down and pray they don't keep doing more things to chase away all the people who are generously giving me money." Reminder that SubscribeStar is back up and running. They are a good alternative, at least in the interim, if your supporters are leaving Patreon.

duskwuff 8y ago

I've heard good things about Ko-Fi (https://ko-fi.com/ https://ko-fi.com/). Significantly different revenue model from Patreon -- creators accept payments directly through Stripe or PayPal, and Ko-Fi provides services on top of that for a low, flat monthly fee.

Applejinx 8y ago

This. I literally live off my Patreon and am one of the success stories, have been to Patrecon etc, talked to Jack Conte. I wish he understood that he could do the Amazon model. Go 'screw you, investors: we own the entire sector and that will be your return, to have a piece of the only game in town'. I don't know if he can be that arrogant but we need him to be. Moving from a regular payment processor to Patreon involved knocking a decimal place off my revenue and slowly recovering (in a way that was more predictable and consistent). These proposed changes in commission don't alter that underlying fact: the business model is better for an independent creator than much higher but spikier revenue off direct sales. Doing a migration throws all that away. I don't even want to switch to an alternative. I want Patreon to be the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money, and my patrons do NOT come from Patreon anyway so there isn't anything really to lose. If they pull a 'Kagi' and blow up, vanishing one day and owing me hundreds or thousands of dollars, that's when I'll be pissed. So far they have not done that and I'm not convinced they will. They don't have to: they're earning shitloads of money quite legitimately. It is only investor logic that has ANYBODY saying they are doomed, and you could have said the same about Amazon all this time. They're Amazon for indie creators. Deal with it.

stcredzero 8y ago
I want Patreon to be the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money, and my patrons do NOT come from Patreon anyway so there isn't anything really to lose. Patreon wants to be a politically/culturally aware brand-crafted payment platform for "the creative class." It doesn't quite want to be "the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money." What if someone else was trying hard and executing well on being "the Amazon of frictionless-caring-through-money?" Would you switch?

nkkollaw 8y ago

A cable company is a monopoly. It's extremely easy to create a website, add a PayPal button, and ask your supporters to donate that way. A lot of people have been doing just that after Patreon's recent deplatforms. Or, there is also SubscribeStar. Patreon are just a middleman, but their arrogance of thinking they are more and their crazy spending will make them go bankrupt pretty soon.

zanny 8y ago
They are displaying the same arrogance Google, Facebook, et al show in regards to their platform lock in and market capture mindshare. They expect to get away with a lot of user hostile behavior because they have network effects forcing anyone who wants to use something like those platforms to use their platform because thats where everyone else is.