6 ms·

Two questions: Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and m

• wmil 8y ago
  The official reason listed is to "promote our collective values: inclusion and solidarity, transparency and accountability; a seat at the table" and Kickstarter describes itself as a "Public-benefit corporation". So it comes off as just the usual lefty political signalling, not the start of a real movement.
  • kjdndisneinj 8y ago
    It's a ton of work to start a union, one that can and has absolutely cost people their jobs, both historically and recently. It seems unlikely that it's just "lefty political signalling". Perhaps you can point to specific reasons why you think this is the case? Furthermore, articles published on this topic indicate that their motivations included well-established and reasonable on-call hours, slightly more vacation days, and more collaborative decision making with management. All of those are real, tangible benefits that most of us would value and enjoy.
• toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Because work conditions are not as you describe universally, and management’s rights are what we grant them through regulation. Management has excessive power in the US, hence efforts to rein it in. Historically, management (factory owners) was dragged into the streets and beaten to death (yikes) when excessive inequality was reached. This is an improvement (and hopefully management would see the benefit of treating labor as a partner, not a resource to be consumed).
• duado 8y ago
  Why not take power that is available to you? Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to. The relationship between a company's stockholders and a company's employees is part competitive and part collaborative. Ignore either at your own peril.
  • longerthoughts 8y ago
    >Why not take power that is available to you? I see your point but at the same time this can create an adversarial dynamic between managers and junior employees, which is toxic even if junior employees get what they want. >Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to. I'm a manager and my proudest moments have been those of restraint, not force. Regardless of whether or not unions can and should be formed, organizations with employees feeling compelled to unionize should be hiring better managers.
    • czbond 8y ago
      "organizations with employees feeling compelled to unionize should be hiring better managers." This is a fantastic observation - and I believe it holds true. I've been in some very demanding technology roles, long hours, with competitive peers. A great leader is worth much more than some Union would have been (anecdotally).
      • rexpop 8y ago
        This is true, but my personal support for collective organizing stems from a belief that there's a material constraint on the "quality" of managers, and we can effectively surpass that upper limit only through collective action.
  • crumpets 8y ago
    > Why not take power that is available to you? Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to. This isn't true. Management only exercises every bit of power once the relationship becomes hostile. There are tons of things management could do to me to make their jobs easier (e.g. standups twice a day at 8am and 4:45pm with mandatory, in-person attendance) that they don't leverage. Unionizing when there isn't already a hostile relationship is sure a way to bring hostility into it.
• sovnade 8y ago
  Right this minute? Yes, tech employees are better off in a lot of areas than say Amazon warehouse employees, but there's nothing saying that in 10 years the market won't be saturated and people won't be pressured into working 60-80 hours a week (which they already are at a lot of the huge firms). It would be better to solidify these things before the industry takes a nose dive.
• segmondy 8y ago
  Not a popular opinion, but these are usually non CS types that have flooded the fields later due to money. Not very skilled, but very entitled. The sense of entitlement is very ridiculous these days. I see folks outside the Bay asking why shouldn't they get paid the same as Bay area folks, when they want to remote from somewhere that has 1/3rd the cost of living. Or people outside the country with 1/10th the cost of living wanting USD rates. ... or literally "coders" who just know how to plumb software and build a basic CRUD wanting compensation that's on par with FAANG level. The world has lost it's damn mind and all I can do is SMH and watch with a grin.
  • dbancajas 8y ago
    You have any first hand experience with the "basic CRUD wanting FANG level salary" types?
  • geofft 8y ago
    > I see folks outside the Bay asking why shouldn't they get paid the same as Bay area folks, when they want to remote from somewhere that has 1/3rd the cost of living. Well, why shouldn't they? It's not like the company magically has more money available when they hire a non-remote employee, is it?
    • kgwgk 8y ago
      Supply and demand? There are tens of millions of programmers in the world.
  • dmos62 8y ago
    Unionization has nothing to do with wages reflecting skills or living costs. Also, your anti-entitlement rant, ironically, gives off a strong scent of entitlement.
  • crumpets 8y ago
    >I see folks outside the Bay asking why shouldn't they get paid the same as Bay area folks Pay has nothing to do with cost of living. That's a lie told by companies as a negotiating tactic. You don't magically make the company more money by being in the bay area.
• bwestergard 8y ago
  "You mentioned that the letter to management listed your grievances. Some people find the idea of a tech workers union implausible, because they find it hard to believe that tech workers could have grievances in the first place. After all, software engineers are relatively well paid. What’s your perspective on that?" "People didn’t even want that much more time off, or that much more time not on call. They just wanted to know where they stood. They didn’t want to have to engage in highly personalized bargaining all the time. It wasn’t that there were rules that favored management — there were simply no rules, and this ambiguity worked in management’s favor." https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/04/lanetix-tech-workers-unionization-campaign-firing https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/04/lanetix-tech-workers-unio...
  • walshemj 8y ago
    The key is "relatively" In the uk its relatively well paid but much less than say a train driver is the average dev in London earns less than a train driver gets for a four day week an they have over time and a DB pension.
    • moate 8y ago
      This is so important. Just because you're being paid well, doesn't mean you're being paid what you deserve. As stupid as it might sound, there are underpaid multi-millionaire pro athletes relative to the value they create for their company. I bring this up because the sports unions are a great example of what white collar unions could look like. Setting minimums, handling grievances, and specifying what things can and cannot be foisted on their members. These guys still sign their own contracts and superstar performers (the "rock star coders" of the sports world) are still able to get the money they feel they deserve by negotiating independently.
• geofft 8y ago
  > Management has the right at a workplace to make any decisions, whether someone in non-management sees fit. What? There is no constitutional right for management to make decisions. Management are people with certain forms of influence over the company; workers are other people with other forms of influence over the company. The only way in which there's a "right" is "might makes right" - that management, when they want to make a decision, can force that decision to happen, and workers can't. The point of a union is to change this calculus. If the workers say, do what we want or we'll leave, there's no question of whether they have the "right" to say that. They have the power. The question is whether it's socially acceptable for workers to say they have that power.
• erikpukinskis 8y ago
  > aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid Some are. You're probably imagining some Python engineer who is making $140k and can work normal hours, drink craft beer and take advantage of "unlimited time off" policies and such. Think about operations staff who are doing mission critical work, like discovering and removing spam clusters. People like that often make an hourly wage, often are expected to pick up extra volume as a company grows, and are often the target of layoffs and wage controls because they are considered "variable cost" not "overhead". Also think about people doing traditionally woman's jobs, like customer support or office support. These people make or break customer relationships, make or break team dynamics, or set the bar for content quality. But senior people on those teams often make less than junior engineers right out of school, because companies can exploit the popular idea that these kinds of workers are just less important. Even coders, especially in production-based industries like video games or special effects, can work under semi-abusive conditions. Many of these firms dramatically staff up and down cyclically which gives employees little bargaining power.