11 ms·

So if they succeed, does that mean nobody can work for Kickstarter unless they are part of the union?

chrisseaton 8y ago
I don't know how unions work in the US, but most unions in the UK fund a single political party, which means you could be forced to pay to support a party with views you find abhorrent in order to work, so I hope not.
- afandian 8y ago
  The Labour party (the official Opposition party, and the previous ruling party) has very strong links to trade unions in the UK. The current ruling party, the Conservatives, introduced new law in this area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Union_Act_2016 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Union_Act_2016
- magissima 8y ago
  At least you have a vote in the union, unlike when your employer decides to use the products of your labor to lobby for policies or support parties you find abhorrent.
- Trisell 8y ago
  Due to a supreme court case you can opt out of having your union dues used to support the political machinations of your union. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/08/26/not-just-in-right-to-work-states-union-workers-can-opt-out-of-membership/#71db6b917141 https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/08/26/not-just-in...
- alasdairnicol 8y ago
  You aren’t forced to pay the political levy in the UK, you can opt in/out.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    It's not just the levy - the paid officers of the union could still be working to support Labour Party activities, speaking in your name and spending your dues, couldn't they?
- stevehawk 8y ago
  In the US it depends on what state the union is in.
- mises 8y ago
  Completely correct. Three of the top 10 election cycle 2018 contributors were unions. * Carpenters & Joiners Union gave $38,366,262 with $37,822,215 to democrats and $529,000 to republicans. * Service Employees International Union gave $28,224,658 with $28,219,509 to democrats and $132 to republicans. * Laborers Union gave $27,538,080 with $26,810,870 to democrats and $708,100 to republicans. Source: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?id= https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?id= As you can see, there's a massive amount of political spending by unions, and it's almost completely on one side. The "right to work" laws which are so demonized do at least provide one huge advantage: people are no longer forced to contribute to a political campaign which they do not wish to support. There has been court ruling around this area in the past few years, but it was a problem for a long time and, to an extent, remains one.
  - calcifer 8y ago
    You mean the unions are not supporting the anti-union party? Colour me surprised...
  - asark 8y ago
    Seems no worse than an employer doing the same, directly or via interest groups. Though they do tend to be more equal-opportunity in their support. In both cases the answer to "how do I stop supporting this political action I don't like?" is "Quit. Hope your skills are marketable."
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      > Quit. Hope your skills are marketable. What do I do when there is an industry-wide closed-shop union, as some people seem to want?
      - mises 8y ago
        This is exactly the problem. Many of the unions I mentioned above are such ones, where in many places, you must be a member if you work in an industry. They are less unions and more guilds. Let's say you are a carpenter, a skilled trade you have likely spent a large number of years learning. It's quite hard to leave the union, because you will be forced to move to a different profession. This obviously isn't right. Unions can serve a purpose for collective bargaining; I think most agree on that. But they don't need to support political parties. It seems that some unions have shifted from representing employees in negotiations to representing a profession in all respects. I believe that's contrary to their original purpose and dilutes both their support and their credibility as simply advocating for the worker.
nemo44x 8y ago
If you're management you won't be part of the union. As a non-manager person it's generally more complex. Often, non-union employees will work under the collective bargaining agreement and still have to pay union dues. At that point, you might as well join the union as you'll get other protections then.
diminoten 8y ago
I don't think that's how unions work unless the company has agreed to that in collective bargaining. I think it's more like you join a company, and there is a set RoE for both the company and the union to talk to you about the union, and joining the union as an individual is usually, politics aside, a strong option because of all the extra benefits and protections union workers receive.
matthewowen 8y ago
No. You're describing a closed shop, and closed shops are illegal in the USA. They _could_ require that _after_ joining Kickstarter either join the union or pay equivalent dues.
- icelancer 8y ago
  How is that different?
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  > They _could_ require that _after_ joining Kickstarter either join the union or pay equivalent dues. That sounds like exactly the same thing as a closed shop. How is that practically any different?
  - barbecue_sauce 8y ago
    I suppose it means that you wouldn't even be able to get a job at a closed shop unless you were already a member of the union.
    - chrisseaton 8y ago
      That doesn't seem practically any different. I still have to support the union if I want to work.
      - matthewowen 8y ago
        If you want to work at a company there are lots of aspects of corporate culture and working environments that you have to accept if you want to work there. Presumably if you don't want to work in a union shop... you won't? And to put another way: would it be reasonable for you to benefit from the work the union does for all employees without also contributing to that union? All this is besides the point that requiring employees to join the union is a decision the _employer_ would have to make (although probably through union pressure).
kazinator 8y ago
Moreover, is a free software developer elsewhere in the world, supplying a free operating system, compiler, web server, ... to these workers considered a honorary member of the union?
- fabianhjr 8y ago
  Full members as long as they don't have the power to hire/fire others and keep profits from others work. In the case of single-developer projects as single contractors, in the case of multi-developer projects as worker cooperatives or collectives. Eg, https://www.iww.org/membership/3 https://www.iww.org/membership/3
mikeryan 8y ago
You can't be forced to join the union though you may be forced to pay union fees if that provision is in the collective bargaining agreement. If you're in a right to work state neither fees or membership is required.
jiveturkey 8y ago
https://www.workplacefairness.org/unions-right-to-work-laws https://www.workplacefairness.org/unions-right-to-work-laws Kickstarter is in NY, which is not a right-to-work state. So you may as well join the union, because you have to pay dues.
uniondude 8y ago
I work under a union (though not this one). Every comment here is almost exactly backwards from my experience. In particular: - You don't have to be a union member to get nearly all the benefits of the union -- including the pay scale from its collective bargaining, access to legal representation, health insurance benefits, and being able to attend regular union meetings. Basically, the only thing a non-member can't do is vote. (I see on our worker list today that fewer than half of our workforce today are actually union members.) - Legally, they can't even require members to pay dues, though I imagine everyone here does, because it's inexpensive, and benefits all workers, including yourself. That's why one would vote to unionize in the first place! These rules can and almost certainly do differ according to your union, local, contract, and state and federal law. Unless someone responding here has specific knowledge of OPEIU, Local 153, their Kickstarter contract, or New York labor law, I would not place any trust in it. Many of these answers sound more like anti-union FUD than facts from the Kickstarter United contract.

I don't know how unions work in the US, but most unions in the UK fund a single political party, which means you could be forced to pay to support a party with views you find abhorrent in order to work, so I hope not.

afandian 8y ago
The Labour party (the official Opposition party, and the previous ruling party) has very strong links to trade unions in the UK. The current ruling party, the Conservatives, introduced new law in this area: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Union_Act_2016 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_Union_Act_2016
magissima 8y ago
At least you have a vote in the union, unlike when your employer decides to use the products of your labor to lobby for policies or support parties you find abhorrent.
Trisell 8y ago
Due to a supreme court case you can opt out of having your union dues used to support the political machinations of your union. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/08/26/not-just-in-right-to-work-states-union-workers-can-opt-out-of-membership/#71db6b917141 https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspin/2015/08/26/not-just-in...
alasdairnicol 8y ago
You aren’t forced to pay the political levy in the UK, you can opt in/out.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  It's not just the levy - the paid officers of the union could still be working to support Labour Party activities, speaking in your name and spending your dues, couldn't they?
stevehawk 8y ago
In the US it depends on what state the union is in.
mises 8y ago
Completely correct. Three of the top 10 election cycle 2018 contributors were unions. * Carpenters & Joiners Union gave $38,366,262 with $37,822,215 to democrats and $529,000 to republicans. * Service Employees International Union gave $28,224,658 with $28,219,509 to democrats and $132 to republicans. * Laborers Union gave $27,538,080 with $26,810,870 to democrats and $708,100 to republicans. Source: https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?id= https://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php?id= As you can see, there's a massive amount of political spending by unions, and it's almost completely on one side. The "right to work" laws which are so demonized do at least provide one huge advantage: people are no longer forced to contribute to a political campaign which they do not wish to support. There has been court ruling around this area in the past few years, but it was a problem for a long time and, to an extent, remains one.
- calcifer 8y ago
  You mean the unions are not supporting the anti-union party? Colour me surprised...
- asark 8y ago
  Seems no worse than an employer doing the same, directly or via interest groups. Though they do tend to be more equal-opportunity in their support. In both cases the answer to "how do I stop supporting this political action I don't like?" is "Quit. Hope your skills are marketable."
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    > Quit. Hope your skills are marketable. What do I do when there is an industry-wide closed-shop union, as some people seem to want?
    - mises 8y ago
      This is exactly the problem. Many of the unions I mentioned above are such ones, where in many places, you must be a member if you work in an industry. They are less unions and more guilds. Let's say you are a carpenter, a skilled trade you have likely spent a large number of years learning. It's quite hard to leave the union, because you will be forced to move to a different profession. This obviously isn't right. Unions can serve a purpose for collective bargaining; I think most agree on that. But they don't need to support political parties. It seems that some unions have shifted from representing employees in negotiations to representing a profession in all respects. I believe that's contrary to their original purpose and dilutes both their support and their credibility as simply advocating for the worker.

nemo44x 8y ago

If you're management you won't be part of the union. As a non-manager person it's generally more complex. Often, non-union employees will work under the collective bargaining agreement and still have to pay union dues. At that point, you might as well join the union as you'll get other protections then.

diminoten 8y ago

I don't think that's how unions work unless the company has agreed to that in collective bargaining. I think it's more like you join a company, and there is a set RoE for both the company and the union to talk to you about the union, and joining the union as an individual is usually, politics aside, a strong option because of all the extra benefits and protections union workers receive.

matthewowen 8y ago

No. You're describing a closed shop, and closed shops are illegal in the USA. They _could_ require that _after_ joining Kickstarter either join the union or pay equivalent dues.

icelancer 8y ago
How is that different?
chrisseaton 8y ago
> They _could_ require that _after_ joining Kickstarter either join the union or pay equivalent dues. That sounds like exactly the same thing as a closed shop. How is that practically any different?
- barbecue_sauce 8y ago
  I suppose it means that you wouldn't even be able to get a job at a closed shop unless you were already a member of the union.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    That doesn't seem practically any different. I still have to support the union if I want to work.
    - matthewowen 8y ago
      If you want to work at a company there are lots of aspects of corporate culture and working environments that you have to accept if you want to work there. Presumably if you don't want to work in a union shop... you won't? And to put another way: would it be reasonable for you to benefit from the work the union does for all employees without also contributing to that union? All this is besides the point that requiring employees to join the union is a decision the _employer_ would have to make (although probably through union pressure).

kazinator 8y ago

Moreover, is a free software developer elsewhere in the world, supplying a free operating system, compiler, web server, ... to these workers considered a honorary member of the union?

fabianhjr 8y ago
Full members as long as they don't have the power to hire/fire others and keep profits from others work. In the case of single-developer projects as single contractors, in the case of multi-developer projects as worker cooperatives or collectives. Eg, https://www.iww.org/membership/3 https://www.iww.org/membership/3

mikeryan 8y ago

You can't be forced to join the union though you may be forced to pay union fees if that provision is in the collective bargaining agreement. If you're in a right to work state neither fees or membership is required.

jiveturkey 8y ago

https://www.workplacefairness.org/unions-right-to-work-laws https://www.workplacefairness.org/unions-right-to-work-laws Kickstarter is in NY, which is not a right-to-work state. So you may as well join the union, because you have to pay dues.

uniondude 8y ago

I work under a union (though not this one). Every comment here is almost exactly backwards from my experience. In particular: - You don't have to be a union member to get nearly all the benefits of the union -- including the pay scale from its collective bargaining, access to legal representation, health insurance benefits, and being able to attend regular union meetings. Basically, the only thing a non-member can't do is vote. (I see on our worker list today that fewer than half of our workforce today are actually union members.) - Legally, they can't even require members to pay dues, though I imagine everyone here does, because it's inexpensive, and benefits all workers, including yourself. That's why one would vote to unionize in the first place! These rules can and almost certainly do differ according to your union, local, contract, and state and federal law. Unless someone responding here has specific knowledge of OPEIU, Local 153, their Kickstarter contract, or New York labor law, I would not place any trust in it. Many of these answers sound more like anti-union FUD than facts from the Kickstarter United contract.