6 ms·

This is fantastic news. I'm one of the software engineers who was fired for organizing a union at a SF/DC based startup last year. The National Labor Relations

This is fantastic news. I'm one of the software engineers who was fired for organizing a union at a SF/DC based startup last year. The National Labor Relations Board found in our favor and we won a large cash settlement. But what we wanted was a union. Seeing others pick up the torch is extremely gratifying. Below are some links to news coverage of our case. https://gist.github.com/bwestergard/a77744dc6f3095fd3fb769dd3d6562ad https://gist.github.com/bwestergard/a77744dc6f3095fd3fb769dd... If anyone has questions about the process, I'm happy to answer what I can.

sf_rob 8y ago
Has being in the news as an organizer significantly harmed your job search?
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  Here's an interesting question: The NLRB says you can't fire someone for union organizing, but does it say you can't refuse to hire someone for union organizing?
  - bwestergard 8y ago
    Yes, under section 8(a)(3) of the National Labor Relations act. The NLRB publishes a helpful guide to your rights: https://www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/basic-page/node-3024/basicguide.pdf https://www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/basic-p...
  - ken 8y ago
    Yes. A friend of mine in college (who had the highest LSAT score of anyone I knew, and went on to become a lawyer) joked that his strategy would be to announce during an interview that he planned to organize, and if he didn't get the job that he would sue them on the grounds that they rejected him for this.
  - kevindqc 8y ago
    Good luck proving that though
  - Dirlewanger 8y ago
    Right, but that's on the same grounds as refusing to hire someone because they're black/Muslim/some other minority of some sorts. Becomes very hard to prove.
- bwestergard 8y ago
  We were all fired in late January. I was the only worker to go on record with my real name before finding another job. I had several offers in February an was sitting at a new desk for a job that paid about $10k more by mid-March. Those who had had less experience prior to the job we were fired from had a harder time getting re-employed. Software employers are not yet collaborating to avoid unions, as employers associations in other sectors have historically. There is not yet an organized blacklist for outspoken activists. Unions are certified by card check or secret ballot. In either case, no future employer will ever know whether you supported unionization in a former job. You will always have plausible deniability, and its illegal to ask outright.
  - DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
    > There is not yet an organized blacklist for outspoken activists. I hope you're right, but it's probably hard to know for sure. My skepticism stems from the no-poach cartel discovered a few years ago.
    - dmos62 8y ago
      Wiki article on the "no-poach" cartel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...
ckdarby 8y ago
From the gist found the article: http://www.newsguild.org/mediaguild3/software-company-learns-a-tough-lesson-about-union-busting-fired-workers-win-big-back-pay-settlement/ http://www.newsguild.org/mediaguild3/software-company-learns... $775k for 15 people especially SF based I wouldn't exactly call that a large cash settlement considering what happened, rep damage, time to find new work, etc. Just had expectations of at least a year salary per person.
- bwestergard 8y ago
  It was approximately $20k per person and the difference between the wages they earned after being fired and the wages they would have earned had they not been fired. Some of my coworkers did end up getting substantial amounts of backpay. But your point stands: this is a weak remedy, and completely out of line with international norms.
  - kevindqc 8y ago
    So that means people who had more trouble getting a new job get paid more? Nice :)
- ashelmire 8y ago
  > The 15 former employees of Lanetix comprised the firm’s entire non-management programming staff. Doesn't this kill a company?
  - kevindqc 8y ago
    They were planning to open (opened?) an offshore coding center in Eastern Europe.
    - EliRivers 8y ago
      "Thought Leadership" on the front page. I'm not surprised they wanted a union.
  - lupire 8y ago
czbond 8y ago
Two questions: Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and moderate hour expectations (say 40-50)? Management has the right at a workplace to make any decisions, whether someone in non-management sees fit. Can't people who are frustrated with the company just go pursue a position elsewhere?
- wmil 8y ago
  The official reason listed is to "promote our collective values: inclusion and solidarity, transparency and accountability; a seat at the table" and Kickstarter describes itself as a "Public-benefit corporation". So it comes off as just the usual lefty political signalling, not the start of a real movement.
  - kjdndisneinj 8y ago
    It's a ton of work to start a union, one that can and has absolutely cost people their jobs, both historically and recently. It seems unlikely that it's just "lefty political signalling". Perhaps you can point to specific reasons why you think this is the case? Furthermore, articles published on this topic indicate that their motivations included well-established and reasonable on-call hours, slightly more vacation days, and more collaborative decision making with management. All of those are real, tangible benefits that most of us would value and enjoy.
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Because work conditions are not as you describe universally, and management’s rights are what we grant them through regulation. Management has excessive power in the US, hence efforts to rein it in. Historically, management (factory owners) was dragged into the streets and beaten to death (yikes) when excessive inequality was reached. This is an improvement (and hopefully management would see the benefit of treating labor as a partner, not a resource to be consumed).
- duado 8y ago
  Why not take power that is available to you? Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to. The relationship between a company's stockholders and a company's employees is part competitive and part collaborative. Ignore either at your own peril.
manyxcxi 8y ago
I’m not really pro-union (though I used to be unabashedly anti-union), but wanted to let you know that I appreciate your courage to fight for what you believe is right. I’m a little annoyed that using the word courage made me twitch for a second because of how much “bravery” and “courage” everyone is getting commended for these days, but I think you’re an example of what every day courage can look like. You knew what the repercussions could be, I doubt you were so independently wealthy that losing your salary meant little, and you publicly stood for what you believe in for the greater good of those around you. Even after all the crap you’ve probably had to deal with, I hope you feel positively about your efforts. Time and perspective are a funny thing... Coming up as young adult and professional engineer I saw unions as a relic that definitely served for positive change (way back in dinosaur times), grew fat and complacent (if not even complicit), and did more harm to the market in general than they did to benefit their members today. Now I site here (still relatively young, thank you) at 37 with young family, having co-founded a company that employs dozens, losing sleep over how much things like health insurance cost for my employees, and my stance on unions has softened up quite a bit. Markets and investors have perverted corporate incentives to a degree that moral leadership can be considered downright mismanagement. I’ve heard managers and other founders complain that “if I pay to train them, they’re just going to walk out the door”, etc. My little sister is in year 3 of her software development career and I can’t believe some of the crap I have had to tell her to watch out for, or worse, how to handle as it’s happening to her. I read about things like the IBM layoffs of “old” workers, then see people I used to work with struggle to get hired (totally not because of their age, of course!) when I know how capable they are and my blood boils. I still don’t know if unions are the answer. Maybe they’re part of it, but I believe we’ve got a generation (or two) of spineless and/or immoral corporate leadership to survive before things get back on the right track.
simmanian 8y ago
How did you get started? Did you just google "how to organize a union" and go from there?

sf_rob 8y ago

Has being in the news as an organizer significantly harmed your job search?

JoshTriplett 8y ago
Here's an interesting question: The NLRB says you can't fire someone for union organizing, but does it say you can't refuse to hire someone for union organizing?
- bwestergard 8y ago
  Yes, under section 8(a)(3) of the National Labor Relations act. The NLRB publishes a helpful guide to your rights: https://www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/basic-page/node-3024/basicguide.pdf https://www.nlrb.gov/sites/default/files/attachments/basic-p...
- ken 8y ago
  Yes. A friend of mine in college (who had the highest LSAT score of anyone I knew, and went on to become a lawyer) joked that his strategy would be to announce during an interview that he planned to organize, and if he didn't get the job that he would sue them on the grounds that they rejected him for this.
- kevindqc 8y ago
  Good luck proving that though
- Dirlewanger 8y ago
  Right, but that's on the same grounds as refusing to hire someone because they're black/Muslim/some other minority of some sorts. Becomes very hard to prove.
bwestergard 8y ago
We were all fired in late January. I was the only worker to go on record with my real name before finding another job. I had several offers in February an was sitting at a new desk for a job that paid about $10k more by mid-March. Those who had had less experience prior to the job we were fired from had a harder time getting re-employed. Software employers are not yet collaborating to avoid unions, as employers associations in other sectors have historically. There is not yet an organized blacklist for outspoken activists. Unions are certified by card check or secret ballot. In either case, no future employer will ever know whether you supported unionization in a former job. You will always have plausible deniability, and its illegal to ask outright.
- DoofusOfDeath 8y ago
  > There is not yet an organized blacklist for outspoken activists. I hope you're right, but it's probably hard to know for sure. My skepticism stems from the no-poach cartel discovered a few years ago.
  - dmos62 8y ago
    Wiki article on the "no-poach" cartel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_L...

ckdarby 8y ago

From the gist found the article: http://www.newsguild.org/mediaguild3/software-company-learns-a-tough-lesson-about-union-busting-fired-workers-win-big-back-pay-settlement/ http://www.newsguild.org/mediaguild3/software-company-learns... $775k for 15 people especially SF based I wouldn't exactly call that a large cash settlement considering what happened, rep damage, time to find new work, etc. Just had expectations of at least a year salary per person.

bwestergard 8y ago
It was approximately $20k per person and the difference between the wages they earned after being fired and the wages they would have earned had they not been fired. Some of my coworkers did end up getting substantial amounts of backpay. But your point stands: this is a weak remedy, and completely out of line with international norms.
- kevindqc 8y ago
  So that means people who had more trouble getting a new job get paid more? Nice :)
ashelmire 8y ago
> The 15 former employees of Lanetix comprised the firm’s entire non-management programming staff. Doesn't this kill a company?
- kevindqc 8y ago
  They were planning to open (opened?) an offshore coding center in Eastern Europe.
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    "Thought Leadership" on the front page. I'm not surprised they wanted a union.
- lupire 8y ago

czbond 8y ago

Two questions: Why are tech company staff wanting to unionize? For the most part, aren't tech staff reasonably to well paid - with good working conditions and moderate hour expectations (say 40-50)? Management has the right at a workplace to make any decisions, whether someone in non-management sees fit. Can't people who are frustrated with the company just go pursue a position elsewhere?

wmil 8y ago
The official reason listed is to "promote our collective values: inclusion and solidarity, transparency and accountability; a seat at the table" and Kickstarter describes itself as a "Public-benefit corporation". So it comes off as just the usual lefty political signalling, not the start of a real movement.
- kjdndisneinj 8y ago
  It's a ton of work to start a union, one that can and has absolutely cost people their jobs, both historically and recently. It seems unlikely that it's just "lefty political signalling". Perhaps you can point to specific reasons why you think this is the case? Furthermore, articles published on this topic indicate that their motivations included well-established and reasonable on-call hours, slightly more vacation days, and more collaborative decision making with management. All of those are real, tangible benefits that most of us would value and enjoy.
toomuchtodo 8y ago
Because work conditions are not as you describe universally, and management’s rights are what we grant them through regulation. Management has excessive power in the US, hence efforts to rein it in. Historically, management (factory owners) was dragged into the streets and beaten to death (yikes) when excessive inequality was reached. This is an improvement (and hopefully management would see the benefit of treating labor as a partner, not a resource to be consumed).
duado 8y ago
Why not take power that is available to you? Management certainly exercises every bit of power that they are able to. The relationship between a company's stockholders and a company's employees is part competitive and part collaborative. Ignore either at your own peril.

manyxcxi 8y ago

I’m not really pro-union (though I used to be unabashedly anti-union), but wanted to let you know that I appreciate your courage to fight for what you believe is right. I’m a little annoyed that using the word courage made me twitch for a second because of how much “bravery” and “courage” everyone is getting commended for these days, but I think you’re an example of what every day courage can look like. You knew what the repercussions could be, I doubt you were so independently wealthy that losing your salary meant little, and you publicly stood for what you believe in for the greater good of those around you. Even after all the crap you’ve probably had to deal with, I hope you feel positively about your efforts. Time and perspective are a funny thing... Coming up as young adult and professional engineer I saw unions as a relic that definitely served for positive change (way back in dinosaur times), grew fat and complacent (if not even complicit), and did more harm to the market in general than they did to benefit their members today. Now I site here (still relatively young, thank you) at 37 with young family, having co-founded a company that employs dozens, losing sleep over how much things like health insurance cost for my employees, and my stance on unions has softened up quite a bit. Markets and investors have perverted corporate incentives to a degree that moral leadership can be considered downright mismanagement. I’ve heard managers and other founders complain that “if I pay to train them, they’re just going to walk out the door”, etc. My little sister is in year 3 of her software development career and I can’t believe some of the crap I have had to tell her to watch out for, or worse, how to handle as it’s happening to her. I read about things like the IBM layoffs of “old” workers, then see people I used to work with struggle to get hired (totally not because of their age, of course!) when I know how capable they are and my blood boils. I still don’t know if unions are the answer. Maybe they’re part of it, but I believe we’ve got a generation (or two) of spineless and/or immoral corporate leadership to survive before things get back on the right track.

simmanian 8y ago

How did you get started? Did you just google "how to organize a union" and go from there?