7 ms·

If Kickstarter can do it, the game industry can do it! Come on, game industry, it's your time to unionize!

Animats 8y ago
Came up at GDC last year.[1] There's Game Workers Unite, but they haven't accomplished much.[2] The biggest success remains The Animation Guild, IATSE local 839.[3] They represent most of the Hollywood studio animators. Much of what their members do is very similar to what game industry employees do. But they get overtime. From the IATSE contract with Disney: "... all time worked in excess of eight (8) hours per day or forty (40) hours per week shall be paid at one and one-half (1½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee’s classification. Except as otherwise herein provided: Time worked on the employee’s sixth (6th) workday of the workweek shall be paid at one and one-half (1 ½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee’s classification. Time worked on the employee’s seventh (7th) workday of the workweek shall be paid at two (2) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee’s classification." "Crunch time" gets very expensive for employers. [1] https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/22/17149822/gdc-2018-igda-roundtable-game-industry-union https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/22/17149822/gdc-2018-igda-rou... [2] https://www.gameworkersunite.org/ https://www.gameworkersunite.org/ [3] https://animationguild.org/ https://animationguild.org/
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Paid overtime is an excellent tool to get some time management discipline into an organization.
  - kevindqc 8y ago
    Yeah.. Who needs time management when you have crunch time!
  - Rogger 8y ago
    Hola
- squaresmile 8y ago
  For comparison in Japan where the animators union is non-existent or not as strong, the working condition is usually pretty rough to downright horrible. [1] https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2017-06-07/nhk-program-discusses-anime-industry-financial-working-condition-problems/.117144 https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2017-06-07/nhk-pro... [2] https://kotaku.com/an-insider-s-look-at-working-in-the-anime-business-1796312543 https://kotaku.com/an-insider-s-look-at-working-in-the-anime...
jerf 8y ago
Yeah, my first thought on reading the headline was "That was not where I expected this to precipitate out first."
diminoten 8y ago
It'll never happen so long as there are "gamers" who want to work in the industry they "love", unfortunately.
- ForHackernews 8y ago
  Why not? The US film industry is mostly unionized, and there's tons of people who love movies, too.
  - diminoten 8y ago
    The supply of jobs is much lower in the games industry relative to the demand.
    - usefulcat 8y ago
      Don't know why you're downvoted; that is exactly right. There's nothing particularly unusual about game dev jobs or companies compared to other areas of tech (especially including startups); it's just that there are a lot of people who want to work on games. It's been that way for at least a couple of decades now.
      - diminoten 8y ago
        I think people assume I'm anti-developer or anti-union, but I was just trying to remind people stuff they seem to be discounting (but already know -- nothing I said was innovative at all). It really isn't that complicated, I don't believe. :/
    - robocat 8y ago
      And there are way more actors than acting jobs. Yet they have the SAG-AFTRA union which had a strike to force better working conditions from games companies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_video_game_voice_actor_strike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_video_game_voice_act...
      - 8y ago
duxup 8y ago
I'm highly skeptical of US style unions, but if any tech industry seems to need unions... it's the game industry.
- mlillie 8y ago
  How would you qualify US style vs non-US style unions? The prevalence of business unionism here?
  - StudentStuff 8y ago
    Most US unions have been heavily neutered and de-politicized, and rarely have the ability to force management to change course. Outside the US, its not uncommon for unions to own a good share of the company, holding board seats which let it affect who manages the company, and in some cases with the business becoming entirely worker owned.
    - mlillie 8y ago
      This is what I was thinking. I know a big complaint especially of the larger US unions is that they just end up mirroring the bureaucracy & power structure of management anyway
    - barry-cotter 8y ago
      That’s not how unions get board seats in countries where they’re on the board; they don’t own significant parts of the company. They have board seats because that’s legally mandated. This can help with short and long term planning but it’s not a free lunch. A worker owned business is either a partnership or a co-op. The forms have been around for centuries. They’re not generally competitive with firms where ownership and employment are separated or they’d be far more common.
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > They’re not generally competitive with firms where ownership and employment are separated or they’d be far more common. That logic doesn't actually follow; even if they performed equally, capital owners get more return in conventional firms (because they get all the returns, not just partial returns from lending capital), so they will favor conventional firms. So, all other things being equal, employee-owned firms have a disadvantage in access to capital and so can be expected to be less common than traditional firm unless they outperform enough to negate the return disadvantage for capital providers.
natalyarostova 8y ago
The problem is being treated poorly in gaming is an equilibrium market clearing outcome. People who want to make games (or discover dinosaur bones, or paint, or do other professions that are correlated with a deep, almost-aesthetic, passion) are competing with other people just like them. Since they tend to be so passionate about these things, they bid each other down. They work just a few more hours a week without pay then the next guy, just because they would so much rather build video games than standard dev work. And before you know it, the field is treated worse. But it's an equilibrium worse, brought about by rational agents trading off work-life balance for work-passion.

Came up at GDC last year.[1] There's Game Workers Unite, but they haven't accomplished much.[2] The biggest success remains The Animation Guild, IATSE local 839.[3] They represent most of the Hollywood studio animators. Much of what their members do is very similar to what game industry employees do. But they get overtime. From the IATSE contract with Disney: "... all time worked in excess of eight (8) hours per day or forty (40) hours per week shall be paid at one and one-half (1½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee’s classification. Except as otherwise herein provided: Time worked on the employee’s sixth (6th) workday of the workweek shall be paid at one and one-half (1 ½) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee’s classification. Time worked on the employee’s seventh (7th) workday of the workweek shall be paid at two (2) times the hourly rate provided herein for such employee’s classification." "Crunch time" gets very expensive for employers. [1] https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/22/17149822/gdc-2018-igda-roundtable-game-industry-union https://www.polygon.com/2018/3/22/17149822/gdc-2018-igda-rou... [2] https://www.gameworkersunite.org/ https://www.gameworkersunite.org/ [3] https://animationguild.org/ https://animationguild.org/

maxxxxx 8y ago
Paid overtime is an excellent tool to get some time management discipline into an organization.
- kevindqc 8y ago
  Yeah.. Who needs time management when you have crunch time!
- Rogger 8y ago
  Hola
squaresmile 8y ago
For comparison in Japan where the animators union is non-existent or not as strong, the working condition is usually pretty rough to downright horrible. [1] https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2017-06-07/nhk-program-discusses-anime-industry-financial-working-condition-problems/.117144 https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interest/2017-06-07/nhk-pro... [2] https://kotaku.com/an-insider-s-look-at-working-in-the-anime-business-1796312543 https://kotaku.com/an-insider-s-look-at-working-in-the-anime...

jerf 8y ago

Yeah, my first thought on reading the headline was "That was not where I expected this to precipitate out first."

diminoten 8y ago

It'll never happen so long as there are "gamers" who want to work in the industry they "love", unfortunately.

ForHackernews 8y ago
Why not? The US film industry is mostly unionized, and there's tons of people who love movies, too.
- diminoten 8y ago
  The supply of jobs is much lower in the games industry relative to the demand.
  - usefulcat 8y ago
    Don't know why you're downvoted; that is exactly right. There's nothing particularly unusual about game dev jobs or companies compared to other areas of tech (especially including startups); it's just that there are a lot of people who want to work on games. It's been that way for at least a couple of decades now.
    - diminoten 8y ago
      I think people assume I'm anti-developer or anti-union, but I was just trying to remind people stuff they seem to be discounting (but already know -- nothing I said was innovative at all). It really isn't that complicated, I don't believe. :/
  - robocat 8y ago
    And there are way more actors than acting jobs. Yet they have the SAG-AFTRA union which had a strike to force better working conditions from games companies. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_video_game_voice_actor_strike https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016–17_video_game_voice_act...
    - 8y ago

duxup 8y ago

I'm highly skeptical of US style unions, but if any tech industry seems to need unions... it's the game industry.

mlillie 8y ago
How would you qualify US style vs non-US style unions? The prevalence of business unionism here?
- StudentStuff 8y ago
  Most US unions have been heavily neutered and de-politicized, and rarely have the ability to force management to change course. Outside the US, its not uncommon for unions to own a good share of the company, holding board seats which let it affect who manages the company, and in some cases with the business becoming entirely worker owned.
  - mlillie 8y ago
    This is what I was thinking. I know a big complaint especially of the larger US unions is that they just end up mirroring the bureaucracy & power structure of management anyway
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    That’s not how unions get board seats in countries where they’re on the board; they don’t own significant parts of the company. They have board seats because that’s legally mandated. This can help with short and long term planning but it’s not a free lunch. A worker owned business is either a partnership or a co-op. The forms have been around for centuries. They’re not generally competitive with firms where ownership and employment are separated or they’d be far more common.
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > They’re not generally competitive with firms where ownership and employment are separated or they’d be far more common. That logic doesn't actually follow; even if they performed equally, capital owners get more return in conventional firms (because they get all the returns, not just partial returns from lending capital), so they will favor conventional firms. So, all other things being equal, employee-owned firms have a disadvantage in access to capital and so can be expected to be less common than traditional firm unless they outperform enough to negate the return disadvantage for capital providers.

natalyarostova 8y ago

The problem is being treated poorly in gaming is an equilibrium market clearing outcome. People who want to make games (or discover dinosaur bones, or paint, or do other professions that are correlated with a deep, almost-aesthetic, passion) are competing with other people just like them. Since they tend to be so passionate about these things, they bid each other down. They work just a few more hours a week without pay then the next guy, just because they would so much rather build video games than standard dev work. And before you know it, the field is treated worse. But it's an equilibrium worse, brought about by rational agents trading off work-life balance for work-passion.