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> Once the students were selected, the researchers then administered the Major Field Test in Computer Science, an exam that was developed by the U.S. Educationa

by harias 8y ago

> Once the students were selected, the researchers then administered the Major Field Test in Computer Science, an exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service and is regularly updated. There is a huge variation among countries in how subjects are taught and tested. I would like to add that many of my peers have resorted to streamlining for whiteboard interviews, and unsurprisingly, they end up with well-paying jobs.

daveFNbuck 8y ago
There is also huge variation within countries. The curriculum is basically up to each college or university in the US. I never took this test.
- gyc 8y ago
  I would assume ABET certified programs would have certain standards or requirements regarding he schools’ curriculums.
  - harias 8y ago
    There are 5 Universities in India with ABET certified courses. None rank among the top 30 in the nation.
  - mattkrause 8y ago
    I’m not sure how much value I would ascribe to a certification that is held by DeVry University, but not the computer science departments of Stanford, Yale, or Princeton. This annoys me to no end, since ABET is used to gate certain federal jobs and the Patent Bar, even in Computer Science.
    - mywittyname 8y ago
      The purpose of ABET accreditation is to ensure that students are prepared to take the fundamentals of engineering exam. Hardly any CS grads take the exam because it doesn't help you get a job. So it's not a big deal that their CS departments aren't accredited. However, every school you listed is ABET accredited in other engineering disciplines (mechanical, chemical, civil, electrical). So ABET-accreditation is important to some fields.
      - mattkrause 8y ago
        It's not a huge deal, but it's not entirely trivial either. I don't want to be too elitist, but where would you like to recruit reviewers for your computer-related patents from: DeVry Tech or Stanford? Do you really want to actively exclude Princeton and Yale grads from working on software that runs the government? I get the appeal of having a standardized 'seal of approval', but for Computer Science, ABET is clearly not that. It looks like several other disciplines are also moving away from ABET (e.g., https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i48/time-leave-behind-chemical-engineering.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i48/time-leave-behind-chemic...)
        jki275 8y ago
        I've never seen a government requirement for ABET accreditation for CS degrees.
        mattkrause 8y ago
        From the eligibility requirements for the patent agent exam: Acceptable Computer Science degrees must be accredited by the Computer Science Accreditation Commission (CSAC) of the Computing Sciences Accreditation Board (CSAB), or by the Computing Accreditation Commission (CAC) of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET), on or before the date the degree was awarded. Computer science degrees that are accredited may be found on the Internet (http://www.abet.org http://www.abet.org). [page 6 of this pdf: https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/OED_GRB.pdf https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/OED_GRB....] A lot of fed jobs have engineering-centric requirements. This one, for example, wants an accredited degree or experience under a PE....to do network management. https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/525193800 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/525193800
  - jldugger 8y ago
    Typically CS programs offer a degree track that is ABET accredited, and a few other different options for students with different needs or desires.
NullPrefix 8y ago
Students from U.S. educational system are doing beter in an >exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service Who could have guessed that?
- plausibilities 8y ago
  "We've evaluated ourselves and concluded that we are superior."
bfrydl 8y ago
I took a look at the sample questions for the test, having never heard of it. It's 66 multiple choice questions, and many of them seem like “gotcha” questions where one of the answers is an off-by-one error or something like that. And how about this lovely question: > A personal identification number that opens a certain lock consists of a sequence of 3 DIFFERENT digits from 0 though 9, inclusive. How many possible PINs are there? Putting aside the value of this question in the first place, the correct answer is 720 but it also includes the answer 1000 in case you didn't notice the emphasis on “different”. Doesn't seem like a great test to me unless it's about your reading comprehension and ability to decipher code with single-letter variable names.
- povertyworld 8y ago
  Isn't this just the sort of stuff students do in a first year discrete math class? This question is hardly scandalous.
  - ggggtez 8y ago
    I agree. Looking at the same sample questions, these are not difficult questions if you know the relevant field of study. The sample questions cover amortization, memory allocation, finite state machines, formal logic... If you just studied enough to pass a whiteboard interview, I'd hazard that you probably can't answer half of these questions without looking up what the symbols mean. Sure, most people here may be able to figure out the PIN question, but it's not about whether any single question is easy or hard, but whether the test can sort the students according to ability. A good student may misread one or two, but a bad student is going to miss a lot more.
    - rightbyte 8y ago
      There is a general description of some nomenclature and symbols in the appendix which I assume the student get. What this really measures is corricilum. And pressumbly it's more stuff like this in the US then Russia?
  - bfrydl 8y ago
Mc91 8y ago
> many of my peers have resorted to streamlining for whiteboard interviews, and unsurprisingly, they end up with well-paying jobs I switched into programming and am low paid, and am doing this right now for interviews. Practicing for whiteboard interviews, or coding tests (real time online and in person). I re-read the language docs and then did (so far) 20 or so self-timed programming tests. Most of them I did in 5-30 minutes, 1 or 2 I got stuck on and subsequently reviewed. After finishing reading the language docs I will read though the platform docs, and may do some quizzes on that as well. As well as whiteboard high level class creation tests (HAS-A, IS-A). The tests have a lot of array stuff, String manipulation, using long instead of int, casting from one type to another, doing a lot of stuff with maps and sorting maps by value. It also uses things then can be done quickly and compactly in streams. I do these things once in a while, but now have it memorized and down cold. Hopefully this all leads to the latter result you mentioned.
- FPGAhacker 8y ago
  Interview experience is just as valuable as the preparation in my opinion. I recommend you start getting some interviews at companies lower on your list and get some of that practice. Also, what do people think about triplebyte for this?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
ionforce 8y ago
> streamlining for whiteboard interviews Can you clarify what this means?
- harias 8y ago
  They spend all their free time on interview prep websites. It is very easy to pass courses in India (except a select few colleges), so they spend next to no time on courses like computer architecture, networking etc and focus entirely on DS and Algorithms. It is quite effective though.

by harias 8y ago

daveFNbuck 8y ago

There is also huge variation within countries. The curriculum is basically up to each college or university in the US. I never took this test.

gyc 8y ago
I would assume ABET certified programs would have certain standards or requirements regarding he schools’ curriculums.
- harias 8y ago
  There are 5 Universities in India with ABET certified courses. None rank among the top 30 in the nation.
- mattkrause 8y ago
  I’m not sure how much value I would ascribe to a certification that is held by DeVry University, but not the computer science departments of Stanford, Yale, or Princeton. This annoys me to no end, since ABET is used to gate certain federal jobs and the Patent Bar, even in Computer Science.
  - mywittyname 8y ago
    The purpose of ABET accreditation is to ensure that students are prepared to take the fundamentals of engineering exam. Hardly any CS grads take the exam because it doesn't help you get a job. So it's not a big deal that their CS departments aren't accredited. However, every school you listed is ABET accredited in other engineering disciplines (mechanical, chemical, civil, electrical). So ABET-accreditation is important to some fields.
    - mattkrause 8y ago
      It's not a huge deal, but it's not entirely trivial either. I don't want to be too elitist, but where would you like to recruit reviewers for your computer-related patents from: DeVry Tech or Stanford? Do you really want to actively exclude Princeton and Yale grads from working on software that runs the government? I get the appeal of having a standardized 'seal of approval', but for Computer Science, ABET is clearly not that. It looks like several other disciplines are also moving away from ABET (e.g., https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i48/time-leave-behind-chemical-engineering.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/95/i48/time-leave-behind-chemic...)
      - jki275 8y ago
        I've never seen a government requirement for ABET accreditation for CS degrees.
        mattkrause 8y ago
        From the eligibility requirements for the patent agent exam: Acceptable Computer Science degrees must be accredited by the Computer Science Accreditation Commission (CSAC) of the Computing Sciences Accreditation Board (CSAB), or by the Computing Accreditation Commission (CAC) of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET), on or before the date the degree was awarded. Computer science degrees that are accredited may be found on the Internet (http://www.abet.org http://www.abet.org). [page 6 of this pdf: https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/OED_GRB.pdf https://www.uspto.gov/sites/default/files/documents/OED_GRB....] A lot of fed jobs have engineering-centric requirements. This one, for example, wants an accredited degree or experience under a PE....to do network management. https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/525193800 https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/525193800
- jldugger 8y ago
  Typically CS programs offer a degree track that is ABET accredited, and a few other different options for students with different needs or desires.

NullPrefix 8y ago

Students from U.S. educational system are doing beter in an >exam that was developed by the U.S. Educational Testing Service Who could have guessed that?

plausibilities 8y ago
"We've evaluated ourselves and concluded that we are superior."

bfrydl 8y ago

I took a look at the sample questions for the test, having never heard of it. It's 66 multiple choice questions, and many of them seem like “gotcha” questions where one of the answers is an off-by-one error or something like that. And how about this lovely question: > A personal identification number that opens a certain lock consists of a sequence of 3 DIFFERENT digits from 0 though 9, inclusive. How many possible PINs are there? Putting aside the value of this question in the first place, the correct answer is 720 but it also includes the answer 1000 in case you didn't notice the emphasis on “different”. Doesn't seem like a great test to me unless it's about your reading comprehension and ability to decipher code with single-letter variable names.

povertyworld 8y ago
Isn't this just the sort of stuff students do in a first year discrete math class? This question is hardly scandalous.
- ggggtez 8y ago
  I agree. Looking at the same sample questions, these are not difficult questions if you know the relevant field of study. The sample questions cover amortization, memory allocation, finite state machines, formal logic... If you just studied enough to pass a whiteboard interview, I'd hazard that you probably can't answer half of these questions without looking up what the symbols mean. Sure, most people here may be able to figure out the PIN question, but it's not about whether any single question is easy or hard, but whether the test can sort the students according to ability. A good student may misread one or two, but a bad student is going to miss a lot more.
  - rightbyte 8y ago
    There is a general description of some nomenclature and symbols in the appendix which I assume the student get. What this really measures is corricilum. And pressumbly it's more stuff like this in the US then Russia?
- bfrydl 8y ago

Mc91 8y ago

> many of my peers have resorted to streamlining for whiteboard interviews, and unsurprisingly, they end up with well-paying jobs I switched into programming and am low paid, and am doing this right now for interviews. Practicing for whiteboard interviews, or coding tests (real time online and in person). I re-read the language docs and then did (so far) 20 or so self-timed programming tests. Most of them I did in 5-30 minutes, 1 or 2 I got stuck on and subsequently reviewed. After finishing reading the language docs I will read though the platform docs, and may do some quizzes on that as well. As well as whiteboard high level class creation tests (HAS-A, IS-A). The tests have a lot of array stuff, String manipulation, using long instead of int, casting from one type to another, doing a lot of stuff with maps and sorting maps by value. It also uses things then can be done quickly and compactly in streams. I do these things once in a while, but now have it memorized and down cold. Hopefully this all leads to the latter result you mentioned.

FPGAhacker 8y ago
Interview experience is just as valuable as the preparation in my opinion. I recommend you start getting some interviews at companies lower on your list and get some of that practice. Also, what do people think about triplebyte for this?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

ionforce 8y ago

> streamlining for whiteboard interviews Can you clarify what this means?

harias 8y ago
They spend all their free time on interview prep websites. It is very easy to pass courses in India (except a select few colleges), so they spend next to no time on courses like computer architecture, networking etc and focus entirely on DS and Algorithms. It is quite effective though.